6.0 stock spool up performance; acceptable? [VIDEO] & possible engine/trans issues - Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum
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Old 09-15-2013, 12:22 AM
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6.0 stock spool up performance; acceptable? [VIDEO] & possible engine/trans issues

Hey guys, I believe this is my first post on this site so cheers to you all from the great Northwest!

On to the post:

History
We just bought a 2006 F-350 with 164k on it. The most recent owner used it to drive to and from work as a forest ranger as well as to tow a small, two place motorcycle trailer. She bought it from an old couple that used it for long distance road trips. No heavy towing in its past from what I gathered, and it is very clean both inside and out. The lady also said that she had her mechanic run through it before she put it up for sale and he pulled the trans pan and found clean fluid and no debris (he did a full service on the trans, as well as the rest of the truck at that time), and that for a 6.0, everything else looked fine (whatever that means..)

Video
Here's a video I made of some short acceleration runs:

To me, it seems like there is a noticeable amount of lag. I do know there will be lag inherently, but I also know that at 164k, the standard 6.0 issues may be starting to surface, even given its relatively pampered history. However, I honestly don't have a whole lot of experience actually owning diesels (other than my ~6 years of near-obsessive researching of all things diesel, just because it's interesting..), so if my preconceptions/assumptions of what the factory VGT spool up performance should be are too lofty, let me know!

Also, when we first got it, I couldn't help but do a couple of boosted launches once it was warmed up. I mashed the brakes and planted the throttle and it took a good 3-4 seconds before the turbo even started to spool, and then another couple of seconds for it to light enough to boost. I can get a video of that as well.

Other strange things:
Engine
It also seems to be running a bit strange until it is up to operating temp. The other day while driving down the highway cold it felt like it was misfiring occasionally and randomly, like a cylinder would misfire once in a while, or it would shudder for half a second or so and then run fine. It goes away once it has been driven a few miles and warms up a bit.

Transmission
The transmission is somewhat hesitant to shift into the next gear at low throttle/normal acceleration when cool. It'll need to rev to nearly 2.5-3k RPM in the first few gears before it shifts into the next gear. You have to flutter the throttle a couple times to get it to go, or goose the throttle to get the RPMs up to the 2.5-3k range to get it to shift. And again, once the truck has been driven for a few miles and it warms up a bit, the problems go away and it shifts fine, from what I can see.


Thanks for any tips/help in advance! I can make more videos of it as well, just let me know

Last edited by rocketman123; 09-15-2013 at 12:27 AM. Reason: added info
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  #2  
Old 09-18-2013, 05:59 AM
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Doesn't look too different from my 04... your gauges are different and I can't tell but it looks like you are up to operating temperature there?

When mine is cold its a bit of a dog as well, I've had it explained to me that the 6.0 likes to be warm and the ECU will change several things on the motor (not entirely sure, but fuel injection timing and duration and VGT operation are among them I believe) to help get it up to temp quicker. The 5r transmission is actually a 6 speed and uses a different 4th gear when cold to help keep the revs up and get everything hot as well. Mine is noticeably slower below around 140 degrees water temp.

Regarding the shuddering and etc, you should probably take a look at both your battery voltage and your FICM voltage. A failing FICM can make for harder cold starts and if FICM voltage is low it can also affect drive-ability. The worst case scenario is a high pressure oil problem. You are getting up near the mileage where HPOP can start to fail, and unfortunately that is a a pretty intensive fix. Do you have a scangauge II or edge insight or anything like that to help monitor all your parameters like FICM voltage, boost, engine coolant temp and engine oil temp?? Its pretty much a must.
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Old 09-18-2013, 06:44 AM
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The best thing you can do is get some monitoring equipment whether it be digital or analog gauges. Those will help you identify the weak points(oil cooler, FICM, fuel pressure, ect.). At those miles, if the motor has never been taken appart for updates (turbo cleaning, blue spring, HPOP, studs, EGR, gaskets, ELC, ect.) and the EGR has never touched, you are going to have some lag in your acceleration (a couple of seconds once you hit the skinny peddle just because of crud build-up). My suggestion is you drop the $$ to have the motor updated. My diesel mechanic does a full 6.0 bulletproof that includes every update plus an EGR delete and exhaust for approx $5K. Or, you can just wait for somthing to go wrong and then fix it. As for the Tranny, my truck does that too. You just need to be gentle unitl it warms up.
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Old 09-18-2013, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketman123 View Post
Hey guys, I believe this is my first post on this site so cheers to you all from the great Northwest!

On to the post:

History
We just bought a 2006 F-350 with 164k on it. The most recent owner used it to drive to and from work as a forest ranger as well as to tow a small, two place motorcycle trailer. She bought it from an old couple that used it for long distance road trips. No heavy towing in its past from what I gathered, and it is very clean both inside and out. The lady also said that she had her mechanic run through it before she put it up for sale and he pulled the trans pan and found clean fluid and no debris (he did a full service on the trans, as well as the rest of the truck at that time), and that for a 6.0, everything else looked fine (whatever that means..)

Video
Here's a video I made of some short acceleration runs:
Powerstroke 6.0 possible stock boost spool issue? - YouTube

To me, it seems like there is a noticeable amount of lag. I do know there will be lag inherently, but I also know that at 164k, the standard 6.0 issues may be starting to surface, even given its relatively pampered history. However, I honestly don't have a whole lot of experience actually owning diesels (other than my ~6 years of near-obsessive researching of all things diesel, just because it's interesting..), so if my preconceptions/assumptions of what the factory VGT spool up performance should be are too lofty, let me know!

Also, when we first got it, I couldn't help but do a couple of boosted launches once it was warmed up. I mashed the brakes and planted the throttle and it took a good 3-4 seconds before the turbo even started to spool, and then another couple of seconds for it to light enough to boost. I can get a video of that as well.

Other strange things:
Engine
It also seems to be running a bit strange until it is up to operating temp. The other day while driving down the highway cold it felt like it was misfiring occasionally and randomly, like a cylinder would misfire once in a while, or it would shudder for half a second or so and then run fine. It goes away once it has been driven a few miles and warms up a bit.

Transmission
The transmission is somewhat hesitant to shift into the next gear at low throttle/normal acceleration when cool. It'll need to rev to nearly 2.5-3k RPM in the first few gears before it shifts into the next gear. You have to flutter the throttle a couple times to get it to go, or goose the throttle to get the RPMs up to the 2.5-3k range to get it to shift. And again, once the truck has been driven for a few miles and it warms up a bit, the problems go away and it shifts fine, from what I can see.


Thanks for any tips/help in advance! I can make more videos of it as well, just let me know
call I sent you a pm!
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Old 09-23-2013, 04:26 PM
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Hey guys, sorry for the slow response, my schedule has been ridiculously full the past two weeks, but has freed up some, so I now have time for diesel stuff once again!

@hasteranger, yes, I took this video after a 15min drive back from town to my parents' house, so it was pretty well up to temp. I've heard of those issues as well, just was making sure my problems weren't caused by something else. This is my parents' new rig, and not mine, so I unfortunately have to convince them of any additional purchases on it. I found a neat smartphone app the other day (here: https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...l.torque&hl=en) that looks like it will show similar data shown by the ScanGaugeII and has some other awesome features. It requires a $150-200 bluetooth OBDII adapter, which makes it about the same price as well. I might just buy it myself and use it on my rigs once I record some data on this rig.


@Jweber6.0L, that's what I was thinking as well. It apparently has had both the oil cooler and EGR replaced and/or upgraded, but that's as much as I know about either of them. If it was my rig and/or I had more money, I would've already done all of the bulletproofing steps by now, that's for sure.

@Jugernaut, got it! If I have time, I'll give you a ring tomorrow!


**Thanks for the replies so far, guys! It looks like my first plan of action will be to acquire some monitoring software to check all of the rig's vitals and report back on what I find. I'll continue to read up on various 6.0 improvements in my spare time as well.
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  #6  
Old 09-24-2013, 09:46 AM
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Biggest misconception is the owners of 6.0s worry too much because of what they read on here, the trucks are dependable and there's nothing to really worry about unless your trying to tow a loader up mt Everest in July with the ac on. Stop worrying and just drive it , when they fail or getting close to that point you will know something isn't right.
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Old 12-01-2013, 12:48 PM
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Hey guys, I FINALLY got some monitoring hardware so I can now finally start to diagnose any issues with the rig! I try to drive it for a good half hour or more once a week to keep the battery charged up and everything flowing well, but other than that it isn't driven a whole lot since it's not my rig and was only really purchased to tow a trailer that the parents haven't yet purchased.

I purchased the OBDLink MX and use Torque Pro on my phone, as well as the OBDLink software on my laptop, for monitoring.

So far, I have discovered the usual issues that come with a totally unmodified 6.0 in average condition; namely, the inadequate charging system, possible weak ficm, and possible turbo issues.

Findings so far:
-Temp delta between oil and water is always within 1*-5*, so the oil cooler is g2g.
-I will put together a pressure gauge to test the head gaskets soon, although there are no signs hinting at a failure.
-HPOP runs up to 3000+ and stays steady through the rpm range during hard accel.
-Didn't see any PID for fuel pressure, but I had problems with the Torque Pro app after the first time I used it, so I'll re-check when I get that figured out. I'll also check to see if the dot is present on the fuel pressure regulator housing to see if the blue spring was installed.

Issues:
-Voltage drops to high 9s during cranking, 11s during cold running, and low 13s after it's warmed up. The drop to 9v during cranking makes me think that the battery might be weak, or at least just discharged, but I had driven the truck for a good 45min the day before, so I'll trickle charge it and then load test it to make sure it is still good. If not, that goes on the list of things to fix.
-FICM voltage is 44-46 most of the time, whether cold or hot, and dropped to 43 immediately after cranking cold, then slowly rose back to 45 after about 45 sec. I'll be doing the big 3, and after I diagnose the battery side of the equation and do the big 3, I'll re-check the FICM voltage. As it stands, it starts up a bit rough after a night of cool-down, and it took about 4 sec to get it to catch when I started it up in 35* weather the other day. It lopes for about 2-3 sec and then smooths out every time though, so start up isn't obnoxiously bad by any means.
-Threw a P0299 code the other day when I was "spiritedly" exercising the vanes, and they stuck wide open. I got them to un-stick after shifting down and up and applying different amounts of throttle. I re-created the same issue with the same circumstances a few days later, fixing the issue a couple minutes later. During normal driving, there is no problem whatsoever. It has only happened under relatively long full throttle accelerations, so I have a feeling it probably just has a coked/sooted up unison ring, but I'll have to disassemble it to be sure.


So, that's all for now, I'll report back as I get more info and when I can convince the parents to hand me the credit card to start working on it heh heh
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Old 12-01-2013, 04:56 PM
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Have the computer updated by Ford with the newest programs. Its amazing what those can do.
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Old 12-01-2013, 07:39 PM
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Your turbo might be all sooted up, especially if it was owned by older people who babied it like you said. Since the vanes stuck I would pull it apart and clean her out.
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Old 12-01-2013, 10:19 PM
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Here's a screenshot of the ecm, etc flash versions that the OBDLink software pulled up from the truck. Sorry about the poor quality, my phone isn't the greatest...

I didn't notice any that were specifically mentioned as bad on the PHP's website, but if anyone notices that they are the less-than-ideal versions, let me know for sure. In that case, I'll send the ECM to PHP to get it reflashed to their recommended version/strategies. If the FICM ends up being bad after I fix the battery/charging side of the equation, the unit will be sent off to get the FICMRepair treatment and will be flashed to the PHP Economy FICM tune.

And yeah, I'll be inspecting/cleaning the turbo soon, and will be hoping that it is still in good shape and just dirty I stuck the vanes again today on the way home (can't seem to keep my foot out of it, heh heh ), but they unstick rather easily with a bit of coaxing, and only stick when I really get on it, and I only get on it once on the way home occasionally.
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6.0 stock spool up performance; acceptable? [VIDEO] & possible engine/trans issues-imag0743.jpg  

Last edited by rocketman123; 12-01-2013 at 10:26 PM.
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