Truck in sig, running extreme street. Had my ARP studs put in by the dealer, then had the truck puking again. At first it only puked once on the way home and I wrote it off to overfilling the coolant, since it didn't do it again after that. Well gradually it has come back and just as bad as before. I do still have my EGR cooler in place. I finally got a chance to datalog the truck last night (after extensive experimenting with Windows Vista and the SCT software.... AHHHHH) and took her for a spin.
First let me start by saying I can NOT believe how many parameters you can keep track of with the SCT software. Watching everying happen on the laptop in a graph was awesome! There is almost too much to record! You could burn a whole tank of fuel and not even touch half of the stuff on the livelink software. Once you're done everything can get exported to an excel file. Which my buddy did for me, but for some reason he doesn't know how to put the file onto my thumb drive plugged directly into his computer hehe:rofl:
Anyways I was told to check out coolant temp VS. oil temp, as my oil cooler could be plugged. I dont have the data on me, but the rough numbers were as follows:
Idling:
Oil temp and coolant temp were within 12 degrees of each other on the nose, like suggested.
Driving down the road:
Oil temp dropped to about 140-145, and coolant was 174-178 at a constant ~60mph.
I'm not sure what this means but I recall reading that the oil and coolant should be around 12 degrees difference or less.
What does this mean? Is there anything else I should check with the datalogging?
*ALSO - you may want to have a buddy in the truck to run the laptop cause it can be realllly distracting. I had my buddy picking parameters out for me and reading numbers off*
subscribed, my truck is at the dealer right now getting studs. hopefully i wont have to go through this. good luck though. maybe you should block off the EGR at the up pipe?
Scratch your stomach while patting your head and rubbing a magic ball all at once, and the moons have to be aligned...
I've got some bookmarked links on my PC at home I'll post later that explain how to do it, it was pretty ridiculous and I could have never figured it out with that. Stupid VISTA!!!!
Ok so here's the graph I made of the data from the live link. It is temperature VS. time. Time is in seconds as that is how the live link records, and my lord it takes a LOT of data. So at the very beginning when I first plugged it in, the truck was already up to temp idling in the driveway.
First thing I want to point out is at the very beginning idling in the driveway, the oil temp was about 10-12 degrees higher than the coolant temp. I had heard they should be within 12 degrees of each other, so I had hope. As I took off and started driving you can see oil temp dropped pretty good and coolant went up slightly. I had the whistling noise while driving (coolant spewing) and I did a few full throttle blasts and some coasting (hilly area) and I did a lot of 60mph cruise control driving too.
So now that I've done this, anyone want to chime in on what is going on? Here's the graph:
Have you had the coolant tested for hydrocarbons like when exhaust gases get past the HG and into the coolant? It's a simple test. It seems like if you are spewing coolant and water temps are normal then something is overpressurizing the system and it's not steam or you have a bad cap. That software sounds like a great tool; can it log coolant system pressure also or just temp?
You've got warped and/or cracked heads. I just had this issue and it was warped heads. My coolant temps were anywere from 180 to 215. My oil temps were anywere from 203 to 240.
+1 on the warped heads. Do you know the tech that did the studs? I'd ask him if he straight edged the heads and if he put new gaskets.
I've got ARPs on mine with an EGR delete, and I can't make it puke no matter how hard I try. I run extreme street as a daily driver. Scuffy did my studs, so that might have something to do with it.
Looks like an bad orgy under the hood? This is what I have connected on my truck right now, Coolant system pressure tester, 6ft of 3/8" fuel line tee and clamps. This will tell you if your head gaskets are leaking. 99% sure they are. Couple of different ways, incorrect installation of head gaskets, or dealer didnt inspect the head they didnt replace well enough or mixed up the good and that bad one. So you may have a head that is cracked or warped. The ARP studs also need to be torqued to a higher setting than standard ford head bolts. If you hook this up on your truck, and pump it up see how hi it will go, and if the cap will vent at 16-18psi. if its less the cap is bad. Next vent the cap so it goes back to 0 and drive it for 30 miles, getting on it a few times, if the cap is good, and goes over 12psi the head gasket, head etc is bad.
Should see if you can come across some EGR parts in a hurry to weld up or EGR delete kit so they can eliminate that EGR issue also. But I doubt thats your issue, right now, if the EGR was leaking, it dumps coolant out the tailpipe. When they take it apart again for the head gaskets make it a point that the put a freeze plug in each end of the EGR cooler. BTW are they emissions inspecting our year trucks? I need to get mine done as soon as I get back in May.hnoes:
What temp was it outside when you did the data log? if it was cold out thats why the oil dropped as low as it did below the coolant becuase it was cooling off in the pan, when you were idling the oil will heat up, and from what I know about the oil cooler is shouldnt be more than 12 above coolant temp. So from those #s you have there I would say the cooler is good. :thumb:
Truck was just in about one month ago for the headstuds and heads. They found one head was warped and got one new FoMoCo head in, so one new head, one old. I dont know what they did, at the time I was more uninformed than right now... I know they replaced one head cause of warpage, I would assume the used new gaskets...why wouldnt they? Also like I said the truck drove fine for about two months before starting to puke again. It was kinda cold out (for you guys, not for me) so that would be the cause of the oil temp drop.
Truck was just in about one month ago for the headstuds and heads. They found one head was warped and got one new FoMoCo head in, so one new head, one old. I dont know what they did, at the time I was more uninformed than right now... I know they replaced one head cause of warpage, I would assume the used new gaskets...why wouldnt they? Also like I said the truck drove fine for about two months before starting to puke again. It was kinda cold out (for you guys, not for me) so that would be the cause of the oil temp drop.
I am from Buffalo, NY baby!!!!!! There was a cold front todayand it dropped to 45 degs and I was walking around in shorts, everyone else is in Parkas looking at me like "WTF is wrong with you"?:hehe:
From what i heard from marc one time was that the temp difference between the oil and coolant shouldnt be greater than 20 degrees. So maybe there might be something up with your truck. If not happy sell it and pick up another one.
I've been told what I saw was normal because of how cold out it was here at the time I datalogged. It was dead on at 12 degrees difference in the driveway. I'm pretty sure there is a lot more up with my truck, check out the motor problems area and read my thread (misfire/transmission skip).
Hope this works out and you find whats wrong, I am going to take extra measures to make sure my sure my heads get locked down correctly and I dont have this issue. :dunno:
Ok so I'm going to give the dealer a call this morning. What do I need to do to ensure my heads get put on correctly and everything is good when the job is done this time?
Make sure you get new heads and that the torque sequence is performed correctly. The key is the heads. If they are warped studs won't do one good thing. I know exzactly how you feel. I've had the same exzact motor and tranny problems on my truck that your truck is having and it's hard to get input on here (the org).
If your having your heads surfaced, you better have a damn good machine shop do it! if they machine the head and dont check the valve clearances (they probably will have to recess the seats......) then you will have potential valve impact problems at high RPM situations.... Also, warranty WONT cover surfacing heads since its is a NO NO according to ford for the reason above...
And as far as the EOT/ECT differential mentioned......it is 15 degrees. EOT should never be more than 15 degrees over ECT. If EOT is below ECT then your truck isnt fully up to operating temps....
mdub707, If I could hijack this for a second, did you datalog your icp pressure by any chance? If so what was it at idle, criuse, and wot. I would greatly apreciate it.
I didn't get a chance to. My buddy had the livelink on his laptop and he was on spring break this past week. Lucky college kids.
Anyways, I brought the truck to the dealer this weekend. I got a chance to actually talk with one of the service consultants and the kid who worked on the truck before and will be working on it this time. Here is what I know now...
I told them about my possible transmission issues and they didn't seem overly surprised, even though they know it has less than 4k miles on the reman. The kid working on the truck said one of the heads was replaced last time because it had what he basically said was corrosion around the valve seats. I've read on here that this is a common area for the heads to crack as well, so that wasn't very surprising. He said he did check the other head for flatness there and he said it was good, thus why it was reused. He said he knows for a fact he didn't damage the head gaskets during reinstallation because he had the cab off. We both agreed that we hoped it wasn't the heads again, I feel for him haha.
I also explained to him that I put my gauges in the truck, neither of the guys behind the counter seemed to care. I'm almost certain they wouldn't care about my programmer, but I didn't feel like bringing that up yet, and they didn't ask. (I think they already know hehe). I went over in detail what was going on with it and we talked about it for 15 minutes or so, and I also explained to him about the data logging I did, and told him about the coolant vs. oil temp situation. He said this should be an instantaneous read. He said give it a full throttle blast and when you let off of the throttle check the temps. That's when they should be no more than 20 degrees apart. I told him what temps I was seeing and explained it was probably around 30 degrees outside when I did it, and I'm pretty certain this is why my oil temp dropped a bit while driving.
So anyways, its at the dealer now, they gave me a loaner car for now (thank god!) and they also explained to me that I should bring the truck there exclusively now since they put ARP's in. I wish they had told me that when they did them! haha. I said that was fine and I would enjoy bringing it back to them since they seem the most helpful and they're one of the few that give me a loaner.
At this point, what does it matter? haha. The kid who's working on it seemed somewhat knowledgable and talking to him I felt a little more confident. Turns out he went to school 5 minutes from where I live now, at SUNY Morrisville for diesel technology. A few of my buddies now are in that program at that school, seems like a pretty good program.
I am getting the truck back sometime tonight or tom. So hopefully I can get an actual spec of what they take off. The machining they do is extremely minimal. They are not machining warped heads back into spec, but taking good heads whether new or used within spec and tightening the tolerances. With the way these 6.0s can rev compared to the 7.3 I would seriously suspect piston valve contact if too much was taken off. So valve float at high RPM would be a concern.
I am not going to say this dealer has installed a whole bunch of heads and there has be "no problems" so it must be ok to do it. I am putting a little more faith in the fact that the tech has looked very in depth into the dynamics of the engine, and this is a collaberation with a Performance shop that has surfaced all their heads to be able to to do stupid stuff like 600+ hp etc. So I would assume that valve deck clearance is one of the mesurements before they even start massaging these heads.
I'd prefer to have warped heads machined flat, once they warp, and then are machined flat again, they wont warp again, you still have the chance of warping the new ones with extreme heat.
Let us know how much they took off.
Obviously with any interferance motor if you take too much off the head, there is chance of P/V contact. I dont know enough about the insides of the 6.0 to say where that threshold lies. Though they may rev high for a diesel, they're not doing anything near the 10Krpms+ I'm used to dealing with on the bike motors, and I'm willing to bet our P/V clearance is even tighter. But each is built with a purpose and our diesel motors were built to last a long time.
Are these motors known to float valves... what RPM is too high?
So, the dealership just called, basically they did NOTHING with the truck because they couldn't get it to replicate any of the problems. I guess it wont puke coolant stock, but he said they drove it 20 or 30 miles, however when I drive it, I drive 130 miles and then it does it. Said they didn't feel anything with the transmission, so I guess they'll just wait til it leaves me stranded again.
Oh they decided to go ahead and upload a new strategy on it, some different coolant thing, didn't sound like he even knew, so basically all my tunes are now worthless on my SCT, and I need to give Innovative a ring... terrific.
I already have one new head with less thank 3K miles on it, the other according to the diesel tech passed his inspection for flatness. I'm at Ford's mercy right now, unfortunately they found nothing wrong at the dealership, even though under the hood is covered in coolant... WTF?:doh:
I understand that, but the camshaft lobes shouldn't be pointing there when the piston is at TDC, the timing just simply wouldn't allow... I think I'm missing something... I'm gonna re-read this in the morning when I can read straight again.
Eric (from innovative!) answered my email after 10pm here! That's customer service!
The piston ISN'T at TDC. It is BTDC on it's way to top dead center. The valve should be closing or closed. But it's not, because of reasons I typed above.
All I can say, is that you need to do a lot of reading/learning at a more basic level. Once you get the basics, you'll grasp what is going. Doesn't matter if it is gas or diesel. 97% of bent push rods on the forums are us 7.3 guys that are over revving, over boosting, and just beating the crap out of our motors. 2.5% are 6.0 guys that are pushing the 6.0 well beyond what anyone here (on this forum) will most likely ever do. And .5% is TwinTurboStroker and his 6.4
The day he called me at work with "I got an injector problem..." was interesting. As far as I can tell, I was the first to point out the fact that it wasn't an injector. Maybe he can chime in about the damage done when over revving a diesel. Or you can find my thread about my bent push rod(s). In my case, my rpm's were WAY too high, and drive pressure was WAY too high. The back pressure was forcing the exhaust valve open causing slack in the lifter/push rod. When the cam lobe came back around, it slapped the lifters so hard, it busted the retainer. On other cylinders, piston to valve contact was made. Valve float to an extreme.
Find the thread. There's pictures to prove this happens.
EDIT: About 10 years ago, I did something similar on a 351c motor. I was running dual springs w/dampener and chromemoly rods, 1.73 rockers, solid cam. Around 10-11k rpm's, pistons made contact and bent some valves. I may have some pics somewhere.
I have the basics down, except the motors I build dont use pushrods, everything I work on is overhead cams.
I read the thread and followed it from day one:thumb:
I said before I understand how pistons can hit valves, I've done it many times, and I even have pistons with valves jammed into the top of them... been there done that. I didn't follow how the pushrods were getting bent, but from what I gather out of your posts now is that when the slack is made from the valve floating, the pushrod gets bent when everything meets back up (the pushrod on the cam running into a floating valve that is trying to return to the head).
Mine was the oil cooler gone bad. Check your coolant vs. oil temp.
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