Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum banner

Jay's Build Thread

75K views 452 replies 61 participants last post by  Super Diesel 
#1 · (Edited)
I have been thinking about doing one of these for a while but never had enough modifications to really make it a good read... well... that has changed.

Goal:
650rwhp plus DAILY DRIVER

New plans for the build :
205/75 or 100% Injectors from Holder Diesel ** Edit ** Now upgraded to 225/75%
KC68 Turbo
Block bored over .020
New pistons with the bowl machined
Assembly balanced bottom end
Stage 1 Colt Cam
New Lifters
6.4 push rods
Ported / Polished head
O-ringed head
Valve seats
Bronze valve guides
Sinister up pipes
SilverLine 4" exhaust - Turbo back
S&B cold air intake
BPD FICM - 58v
EGR delete
Driven Diesel Reg Return
1/2" Sump feeding 6.4 high vol pump
Adrenaline HPOP

I know I am overlooking several modifications... but follow the thread.. I am sure everything will be listed eventually..

So it all started back in 2012...
I traded in my SRT8 charger for a bone stock 2006 F250 from a local Ford dealership with just 48,000 miles on it for $28,000





First modification that came was a 4" turbo back silverline exhaust



Then of course came the SCT x3 from Innovative with their three files.
After a short period of time, I gave Chris B. out at TSD a shot with his mild panty dropper.

Fast forward a couple months and I started turning wrenches for Bill ( owner of PHP ) on the weekends. This is where the addition to performance really got heavy. We put my truck on the dyno running the MPD from Chris B. with Bill's ATLAS 40 FICM program. 9.8.12 - 423 hp & 960 ft-lbs



Here is just a couple random photos of the truck as well as the closest thing I have to a child.



And when he was a puppy in my old F150


Back to the truck mods and fast forward a few more months and with the paranoia of driving a 6.0l with stock head bolts, I sent my truck over to Elite Diesel in Duluth, GA to do the studs on my truck.





Next came the four inch lift from the guys over at Pure Performance


As you can see here, I run the load leveling bags.


On the rear suspension on this truck I have pulled one of the rear springs to soften the ride. This caused the axle wrap to become worse so I gave Miles Flight a shout on a set of traction bars.


Somewhere in the mix of things I installed an AIS water meth kit set to flow 14 gph while activated at 18 psi.




A few more 'go fast' goodies came next.
I installed the Stage 3 KC68 along with Holder Diesel's 190/30% injectors.




Then to dyno the combination of 190/30s, KC68, and with w/m 693 rwhp




After a week of running with this stout freaking motor, I had it dyno'd at Darkhorse's dyno day... This is where crap hit the fan. The first pull never got the charger to light for some reason. The second lit but the truck did not sound healthy. It laid down 625 rwhp 'ish' Then the third was even worse at mid 5s. The truck was pulled off the dyno dumping smoke out of the CCV and oil fill tube not to mention the lope at idle. Josh at Darkhorse ran his IDS on the truck which showed a relative contribution test that resulted in cyl 1 being low 8%

I had the truck towed back to the shop by Patrick aka Buckoff and the following week the tear down began.


Cyl 1 piston melt:

Cyl wall:


As the progress sits this morning:

 
See less See more
28
#2 ·
So what's the plan for it?
 
#5 ·
Im sure you already know.. but to fill in others reading; With the design of the piston bowl from factory, it has a sharp edge at the crest of the bowl. This is the spot where 95% of pistons that do crack happen because of the minimal cross section offering little to no resistance to cracking. That is because this is the spot where the metal is the thinnest. By beveling that sharp edge out, the cross section thickness is greatly increased causing the piston to be less prone to cracking. This contributes to the piston accepting higher EGTs without internal damage.

Another benefit that happens is the compression will slightly lower due to the combustion chamber volume at TDC. The lower combustion rate will open the doors to make the implementation of all kinds of power adders more safe. Such as higher allowable boost psi and... you guessed it... laughing gas :nod:

To answer your question... there may be a sneaky pete installed for those ' gotta have it ' moments
 
#8 ·
What egt's were u seeing? Looks like there might have been piston to valve contact... Was there an injector issue that caused the hot hole?
 
#9 ·
Peak EGT recorded on my insight was 1680
The heat on that one cylinder was caused by a high concentration of methanol / water as well as a high volume ( 24 gph was injected at full boost ). If you look at the way the air flows into the manifold on a 6.0, the cylinder one has the most direct path. I believe this is why primarily cyl 1 was the most severely damaged.
 
#13 ·
Haha, I know how you feel. I would like a ported intake manifold but my truck does not need a $1000 piece. I will most likely be giving Smeding diesel a try. $385 after core exchange. It looks like they bore out the cylinder supports (which is probably the biggest gain in airflow) and install plugs. No, you probably won't get machined port floors or ceiling ribs removed... but I'm not interested in spending 800+ for that extra bit I'll probably never feel at my level. Anyways, here's a link...

Ford 6.0 Ported Intake Manifold Exchange
 
#21 ·
If your gonna spray you should take the time to put little nozzles just in front of each intake so each cylinder gets the same amount of nitrous, or else you'll be right back here. I know once the manifold is cut open it wouldn't cost but maybe a $100 more to have nate tap you some 1/8npt bungs for nitrous ports :D I know I'll do something like that for my water method, but I'm only using h20 to cool maybe, I'm only seeing 1460* @ wot with my 68mm and 190/100. I do have a ported intake, ported exhaust manifolds an sinister y pipes though too. I can't wait to see the end result of this build. But fwiw, if your doing a full built motor, I'd go 350/100s and compounds :liar: sorry your truck is down, its always a bummer but it will be a great experience building it
 
#23 ·
Jay, when elite diesel did your head gaskets the first time, looks like they took a burnishing pad to the deck surface...I'm not knocking anyone, or badmouthing anyone...but this is a big big "no no" on an MLS gasket, those pads (everyone know what I"m talking about...those brillo/scotch brite type pads that goes on a air grinder and spins at 7k rpm???) anyway, those actually do more harm than good...people have used them for years to "prep" a block, and on an old school 350 chevy with a graphite style gasket, you can get away with that. People like using those because it makes the deck surface really shiny, but all of those swirl marks are actually where metal has been removed, and you make the gasket surface very uneven and usually a worse surface finish than OE. I assume you're going to have the block milled as per the motor build?

I'd also recommend fly cutting the pistons for valve reliefs, it's just an extra safety measure, and further lowers compression. I've got some data on the exact compression ratio, and I've CC'd a few piston bowls before and after delipping and fly cutting to get exact numbers on what the compression ratio will be. If you plan on spraying, buy rods. They're hands down the most expensive part of a diesel build, but if you plan to use it a lot on a dyno and the track, with injectors that start with a 2xx....I'd recommend billet steel rods. I'm going to be doing some testing very soon on cryo treated stock rods, but the rods on these motors are powdered metal, so there's only so much that can be done to strengthen them. You could upgrade the rod bolts if you were going to keep the stock rods...a little extra insurance, but they tend to bend more often than flying apart due to rod bolt failure. Also, RCD makes (or I should say, has made for them) some H13 wrist pins, they're like 200 bucks, relatively cheap insurance.


Also, you definitely had some piston to valve contact. If I might ask...who did the machine work (if any) to the heads when you had the head gaskets done at Elite? That piston to valve contact is either a product of the head having too much milled off if that's all that was done, or someone set the valve height wrong. Basically the valve height needs to be .030" or so shorter than how they came to address lifter preload. Now, the stage 1 cam you mentioned is reground stock lobes, which makes the base circle smaller, also giving less lifter preload, and you can run the updated pushrods that are .050" shorter (8.900" vs 8.950" that the 6.0's came with) and that'll lessen the preload too. The valve train in these motors is embarrasing. The rocker arms have as much as .100" variance in them from one to the next, the only way to know your lifter preload for sure is to break out the dial indicator and measure it...I can do a write up on it if it'll help people. Also, while we're on valve train, check the plastic lifter retainers...they tend to crack, and allow the lifter to spin, which in turn destroys the cam, and usually the rest of the motor too. There's some other options out there, I'm working on more...but slowly.

You also should have the block align honed, the main bearing clearances on these motors varies significantly from the factory as well. If the machine shop you are going to use is going to run the engine in a pyrolytic oven to clean it, don't run the bed plate in the oven, it'll warp the crap out of it.


You could look at going with solid roller lifters...I can get them for around 500 bucks, and they come with a steel vertical link bar to keep them from spinning, (so no more plastic retainers, I wouldn't want to dump thousands into a bottom end, and then have a $20 dollar plastic POS fail and blow it all up). Trouble is with solid lifters you then need a way to adjust the valve lash...enter adjustable rocker arms...Harland Sharp makes some, they're not cheap. 2500 list price, but on a group buy they can be had for 16-1700. I know that's a ton of money for rocker arms still, but either way, it's another option. I personally hate the hydraulic lifters on these motors...they cause so many issues, if Ford had just given these engines solid lifters from the factory (like every other diesel out there) it wouldn't be so bad.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, just throwing some options and ideas out there to consider. Honestly if you only plan on staying in the 205cc range with a 68mm you would be fine with stock rods and all, probably wouldn't even need to flycut the pistons either really, as long as the valve recession and valve height were right...but it depends on whether or not you'll be satasfied with 650 after a year of having 650 lol.
 
#24 ·
The swirling on the block definitely resembles the aftermath of a die grinder. I was worried about this but I am relatively new to these motors ( 3 years ) and was unsure of the severity that it can cause. This go around the machine shop I will be using is Engine Services in Brasleton, GA. They are the same people who did my head the first time by my request. The valve contact is something that I intend to speak with them about to get their opinion on. I did install the shorter 6.4 push rods on the last go around also.

The block will be milled while it spends it's time at Engine Services.

I do plan to stick with stock connecting rods for the time being. I simply can not afford the additional three grand for the billet (or the upgraded lifters/ rockers). In regards to the H13 wrist pins, if you recommend that I upgrade them, I will do it. I am not an expert on the bottom ends of these motors. If you believe that the OE wrist pins are prone to cause issue, they are out and the upgrades will be in. I will also be installing new lifters and guide that are OEM.

I will make sure they are aware of the bed plate warpage that can occur also.

I have been on the tipping point of doing a small shot of spray or not. I like the idea of always having it on tap but then you run into the concept that I will always want to go bigger and bigger. If I simply stay away from spray, I can keep the truck more of a reliable daily driver. Even when I had my build set up and dyno'd at 700hp, I still tuned it down to 550 ish on a street file. Anything over 600 rwhp is too much for the street in my opinion

Long winded is ok in my book. Thanks for taking the time to write all that out and give advice / expertise in the areas that you did.
 
#25 ·
Jay,

Have you thought about bigger oil? HPOP?

I am running a twin hpop from Warren diesel and I am very happy with it :nod: I can hold 4.7-4.9v at WOT with 285s.

Also I have a few customers running my 68mm stage 3 that said the RCD pump made a HUGE difference. One was running 190/75s and said it made it feel like a whole new truck afterwards.


I know people say that 205s should be fine with stock hpop... but I feel there are still gains to be had. As long as you are going all out... might as well add some bigger oil.
 
#26 ·
I have been talking back and forth with Jennifer down at DieselSite about their upgraded Adrenaline pump. There is still a decent chance that I will be going that route. I like the idea of the dual pumps and they have proven to work really well but for some reason I like the idea of keeping the engine bay as stock appearing. Plus this allows me to pull in the work stock class at sled pulls :)
Duel pumps will kick me into a higher bracket.
 
#27 · (Edited)
Tell the machine shop to set the valve height to 2.190-2.200" measured from the spring seat (no valve stem seal installed during measuring) and valve recession around .030-.035" and you'll be fine. Depending on how much they milled off last time, you may need to make some adjustments. Shoot for as low of an RA (roughness average, used to measure surface finish) as possible, single digits would be great, 20-30 RA would be ok. That's somewhat less relevant with o ringed heads, but very important for the block side, assuming that is, that you were going to use mls gaskets with the o rings? There are copper gaskets (solid sheet of copper ) available, and several graphite options. Not sure if you've spoken with Charlie about his gaskets, it's still early, but his seem to be holding up well with the fire ring and reciever groove. Anyway, feel free to hit me up if you have any questions.


Oh, and I second the notion for dual pumps, I haven't seen any data on those single hpop upgrades, but I haven't looked for much info on them either. I like the reliability of 2 pumps, rather than one 'hot-rodded' hpop, plus the replacement cost of a single performance hpop would be waaaay more than the hydraulic pump used in dual pump setups.


And as for the wrist pins, I'd tend to say the stock rods would be a limiting factor/weak point long before the wrist pins will be, but they're good insurance, and relatively reasonably priced, at 200ish. It's your wallet, just gotta decide how much that little extra insurance might be worth to you lol.
 
#28 ·
Your build sounds pretty nice. Earlier you mentioned delipping the pistons to prevent cracking. Anyway I know a lot of Dmax guys do that but now there are a few companies selling pistons with oval shaped fuel bowls. This kind of intrigues me and makes me wonder how well it would work on a 6.0. From what I have read is that it helps with the cracking quite well but I do wonder what affect it has on combustion.
 
#29 ·
I'd agree with the others, full ICP makes a huge diffrece especilly in the higher RPM range. really wakes the truck up.

& my opinion on N2o, once u take that first hit, Youll be hooked, it only progresses till it gets to the point till youll need the rods!!!

"if ijus bump the n20 a liitle more i can go a little faster, little more,little more, little more.

It will be cheaper NOW to do rods, than bend or break one 6 months from now, and have to go threw all this all over again. build the motor to suit your needs. or a limit you have in mind and stick to it!!!!!!!!! TRY NOT TO TAKE ANY SHORT CUTS OR SKIMP ON ANY PARTS IN THE BOTTOM END...PLEASE

keep it under 800hp on stock rods!!!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chatham036
#30 ·
Y'all have pretty well talked me out of the laughing gas. I am going to keep my meth system hooked up but dialed back to inject 10 or 12 gph at 65% meth activating at 18 psi.

With the 205/100% I am hoping to hit low 700s on fuel with all of the air flow improvements I am making. 750ish with the w/m

I will only run this max effort file on the dyno to find out the ' before / after ' numbers. Once I pull it off the dyno, I plan to neuter the file to 550 - 600 hp on fuel to make it more calm for the street. The meth will stay deactive unless I pull up to a red light and... well... you get the idea. :scuffy:
 
#32 ·
I'm in on this one. Thanks Jay for sharing your build experience and thanks to all the experts and their knowledge. Threads like this are therapeutic ; it takes my mind off F15 technical issues LOL

sent from my Samsung S4
 
#34 ·
The motor has been dropped off at the machine shop and should be ready middle of next week.

I just got off the phone with Jennifer about running their Adrenaline HPOP and possibly their HPODs. I am waiting for Bob to give me a call to finalize everything. After a few of yall recommended upgrading the HPOP, I finally listened. Lol

On a serate note, Rykan at Holder Diesel recieved my injectors today and he will be upgrading them to 205/75%.

Things are finally starting to come together. If everything goes right, I should have my truck back on the road in less than two weeks
 
#36 ·
Subbed for some good info!
 
#38 ·
Those 190's didn't last long... lol. The only thing I don't like about the hpods is the ccv. the passenger side valve cover doesn't have the filter that is on the drivers side and the hose I have run under my truck drips oil. Plus I don't like the smell at all. Although the volume of blow by has seemed to taper off as the engine is breaking in. I am considering installing something like bd's ccv system modified for my needs to eliminate this. What ICP v were you seeing on a WOT run with your 190's b4 the meltdown?
 
#39 · (Edited)
I was able to see what I could do with 190/30s. Now that I have run the course with 190s, I want to try a different combination. I like to show people what different combinations of parts can achieve. It also gives me greater experience first hand for what each level of build is capable of doing on the track, dyno, or how much is feasible to tow with each level. 190/30 with Charlie's KC 68 using the standard housing proven to be a STRONG build for any use of the truck. 605 rwhp on fuel was a blast to hot rod around in but it could still be tuned down for heavy towing. I hooked up to 15k and the truck was able to maintain under 1,200 egt pretty easily without the water/meth cooling it down.

I was able to hold 4.7v at WOT on the stock HPOP
From what I have seen on other trucks, I think I could have got by continuing to use the stock pump but I figure it is easier to upgrade it now than later. With the upgraded pump I can also benefit from the drop in duty cycle as well as the 'peace of mind'. Plus DieselSite's products are top notch :thumb:
 
#42 ·
nope. nuh uh. no way. not happenin. :nutkick:

I am cutting my meth shot down more than 50% of the volume it was at and staying away from spray.

From what I have gathered, the KC68 with the .58 standard housing just about peaks with 205cc injectors. I am assuming that the 225cc will not be much of benefit over the 205cc with this charger since the motor will be starved for air. This is just my hypothesis. Sir Charlie? Input?
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top