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Old 02-14-2014, 10:36 PM
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tuning for turbo

So how bad would my lag be with a 63mm pmax 190/100 tune, while having a stage 3 on the truck? Feels like I have an incredible amount of lag over the 63mm. And when tc locks I feel like its bogging the motor if I put it to the floor like its fighting with me. But I back out to about 30% an in kinda starts moving decently. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the truck, no sticky injectors, nothing. Now I do have a slight exhaust leak(I'm so dam lazy right now) and I know that will aid in slow spooling. But not this bad. 1,2,3 is good an forth it feels a little sluggish, then tc locks an it feels like it falls on its face. I have to SLOWLY roll throttle to start picking up a lot of speed. Its tuning mainly correct? Because right before I put the 68mm on faith the same tune the truck would light three off from a 50mph roll with ease. So... thoughts? Tuning is the major issue? Vgt solenoid? Or leak? I'll address the leak tomorrow an hopefully rid of any leaks I have. Also... its a stage 3 barder. Which works flawlessy as being it was just on another truck. Just need opinions if tuning is a MAJOR factor? Which I feel it is. Thanks an advance. I just don't know what tuning does to turbo spool up, timing? Injector pulse width? ICP? I have no idea when it deals with tuning other than knowing how to load a tune hahahaha
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Old 02-15-2014, 06:25 AM
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I can't answer your questions on how they tune to get the turbo to spool but I can answer that tuning is for sure a major role and is more than likely your issue. When I swapped from the hybrid to this stage 2 it felt the same way. I could barely touch the gas and it would go but if I rolled into it then it felt like something was holding it back. And both chargers are 64.7mm! Soon as I got a new tune for TSD it lights off with ease and the more I press the pedal the harder it pulls. Incredible the difference in a tweaked tune.
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Old 02-15-2014, 06:37 AM
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Even a small leak can increase spool time. If it is locking too soon, that is a problem. What boost are you seeing when it shifts to 4th and locks? If it is already spooled, I wouldn't expect it to bog on a shift. I don't have the Barder, but with the same tuning I didn't see more lag switching from a 1 -3 turbo. I attribute that to the larger turbine side. As I said in my other post, my smoke went down. A new tune could certainly help if all is well.

Maybe you need to drive a stock truck and then get back in yours to show you what you have for acceleration.

Last edited by twoicebergs; 02-15-2014 at 10:05 AM. Reason: increase
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Old 02-15-2014, 09:26 AM
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This leak was documented a month ago Jake. Stop being lazy and fix it!!
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Old 02-15-2014, 04:22 PM
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I fixed the leak. Still has like a dead spot feel. So tuning?
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Old 02-15-2014, 04:26 PM
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Well cruising it shifts into 4th at 30mph. Wot it shifts into 4th at 35-40, tc lock at 42ish an I'm at 15-1600rpm or so I think. So its really down low an I can hit 25psi on the gauge but it feels like if I back out of tge throttle he boost will drop an it will pull harder.
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Old 02-15-2014, 04:32 PM
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tuning for turbo

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCjake View Post
I fixed the leak. Still has like a dead spot feel. So tuning?

The only dead spot that will be there on large turbos 66mm + is at low RPM when in 6+TCL. The only way to get around this point will be to drop a gear to increase rpm.

Aside from that, assuming no mechanical issues, the lag can be addressed inside of the tuning. As long as your tuner has had the hands on time to know how to address the problem, shouldn't be a problem
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Old 02-15-2014, 06:21 PM
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I agree 100% with Jay... too many people are led to believe that a bigger turbo will act exactly like a smaller turbo. This is not true!!! Off the line can be helped but like Jay said, locked in OD at lower rpms it will be easier to notice the difference. Do the test from around 2200rpms and I bet the turbo will light off like a rocket. Then do the test at like 1600 rpms and I bet it will feel like a laggy turd.

Tuning can help. Have the tuner make sure it does not lock the tc into OD so easy and so low.
Gears will also help. Raise that RPM level more
Smaller tires will help. This raises the rpms and takes a little load off the motor
Air flow mods will help like a ported intake, aftermarket air filter, up pipes, manifolds, etc... They will actually improve the volumetric efficiency which will cause the turbo to operate more efficiently at lower rpms.



Much of this has to do with the efficiency area of the compressor maps (different turbos operate differently at different area of the comp map)... It is something easier explained over the phone... but I will try here.

I am not sure if you understand all the different terminologies but for this discussion I would focus on pressure ratio, Air flow, and the efficiency islands. A simpler way to think at it is pressure ratio = boost, air low = rpms, and efficiency islands = temps (those are not exactly what they mean but it helps to understand better).

The higher the pressure ratio the higher the boost
The higher the flow the higher the rpms
the higher the efficiency the lower the temps and the better the turbo will run and spool up

here is a general map. You can see that the closer to center of the map you get the more efficient it is. This also equates to lower temps. The farther you get from the center, the higher your air temps get, which raises your egts. Also the quicker you get on the map and get to the efficient areas of the turbo, the quicker the turbo will spool up and make efficient power.






Here is a map comparing the pmax to the stock turbo. The green area is where we spend most of our cursing time (around 1600-1800rpms). You can see that it is very close to the center of the efficiency islands of the stock turbo and that it is way out of efficiency of the larger pmax turbo. Which means that at the same psi, same boost, same rpms... the stock turbo will be putting out cooler air. Also you can see that the smaller turbo can put out more boost at a lower rpms without surging (that would be the top left areas of the compressor maps) I know this is not your exact situation but it illustrates the same points as to what we are talking about. Smaller turbos operate better at lower rpms and lower boost.

The green area = 1600-1900 rpms
the red area = 1800 - 2100 rpms




Here is another picture of where we spend most of our time at 3/4 pedal - WOT on a spirited run. You can see that now you are almost dead center on the efficiency island of the pmax and now the stock turbo is way out of its efficiency range. This is one of the reasons why a bigger turbo like the pmax will will feel so much faster on the high end, spool faster above 2200rpms, and lower your WOT egts,.






There is a lot more that goes into it than just this... but it should give you and idea of what I am talking about. You will also note that I did not plot just one little tiny point on the maps... that is because our boost and rpms fluctuate so much with tire size, speed, tunes, volumetric efficiency, etc... so some people might experience slightly different results but the general principles are the same.

bigger turbos generally takes longer to spool/light
Smaller turbos operate better at lower rpms
bigger turbos generally equals higher cruising temps
bigger injectors generally equals higher cruising temps
bigger tires generally equals higher cruising temps and spool later
higher elevation generally equals higher cruising temps




Now before anyone nit picks my calculations.... I did not really make any. I just guestimated to show general theory and not exact plotting points. Also I know every map is different but these ones were easy to find and illustrate the principles were are talking about
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Last edited by peixinho; 03-05-2014 at 06:28 AM.
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  #9  
Old 02-15-2014, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCjake View Post
Well cruising it shifts into 4th at 30mph. Wot it shifts into 4th at 35-40, tc lock at 42ish an I'm at 15-1600rpm or so I think. So its really down low an I can hit 25psi on the gauge but it feels like if I back out of tge throttle he boost will drop an it will pull harder.
sounds like it's shifting way to soon. It's 5th gear not 4th...our trucks hardly ever use 4th gear that much. Raise your shift points for OD and lockup to keep the turbo spooled. If I have a late lockup tune...it'll shift into OD at 50mph and lockup at 60mph. If it's a early lockup tune...it'll be just the opposite....lockup at 50 and OD at 60.
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Old 02-15-2014, 06:58 PM
Making ported intakes

 

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You need to fix your sct and get new tunes from Matt with odawg style shifting. Mine goes to OD around 55-60 mph and does nothing like yours.
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