Anyone try big injectors with little nozzles - Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum
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post #1 of 106 Old 10-08-2013, 06:50 PM Thread Starter
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Anyone try big injectors with little nozzles

So... needless to say I am very disappointed with my switch from 175/stock to 175/75. Although the truck feels a little faster (like 20hp) I would say that the truck is 10 times smokier. Egts are much higher. I can hit 1200 egts on a light 1/4 throttle 0-75 mph. Although at WOT 0-100 I only hit about 1500 egts. Average cruise with 175/stock was 650-750 now with 175/75 850-950 It is flat out embarrassing to daily drive. I will dyno these injectors before switching but I will be switching soon and I wanted to get some feedback and see if anyone else has tried larger injectors with little nozzles.

My 175/stock seem to keep egts way down. Better fuel mileage. WAY LESS SMOKE. Similar power (soon to be shown on a dyno). All around much better for my use which is putting 40,000 miles a year on my truck in a metro area full of freeways and stop n go traffic. I do not want to go back down in size. I would like more power with better driveability.


Oh and before anyone thinks I have not done my research or due diligence here is what I have tried.

Multiple tune revisions from multiple tuners
Tow tunes
Switching back to a smaller turbo (mtw stage 1)
checked for all possible leaks
checked all sensors and parameters
the problem started only after installing nozzles on my 175/stock injectors




People used to think that 175/stock made no performance gains over stock injectors which we have learned is not true. There is a huge gain in performance. People also used to think that the only way to get performance was to put big nozzles on the injectors. Well I am thinking the nozzle size (at least for my purposes) does not need to be so big.

Since I loved my 175/stock, even better than my stock injectors. 175 is about 23% bigger than stock. The right ratio should provide great atomization etc etc... 175s should get 23% nozzles... right???

So...

175/23
190/30
205/34
215/37
225/40

etc...


I would like to go even one step further and get the same ratio as my 175/stock. The closest I get get with that would be by adding 30% to the size of my injectors... 175 + 30% = (175x1.3)= 225/30


Has anyone tried super big injectors with tiny nozzles?

Anyone wanna poke some holes in my logic I don't claim to know everything about injectors but I like to think outside of the box


So should I go with 225/30 or 225/50


.

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My Current Build Thread http://www.powerstroke.org/forum/6-0...ml#post7528746

Current Setup 190/30 and KC 64mm Stage 2 turbo

Last edited by peixinho; 10-09-2013 at 08:16 AM.
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post #2 of 106 Old 10-08-2013, 07:21 PM
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You already poked it yourself. I can't remember if your 175s are plugged, but if they are, that is why the 175/stock worked so well. You should still be able to get more gain out of the injector with a slightly larger nozzle, about 20-30% (if you could find smaller ones). 190s and 40% would be a very good match to ensure the barrel is empty. I went from 75% nozzles to 50s and the smoke is definitely less. I didn't dyno after the new ones, but they seem to do about the same on a timed run.

Going larger with smaller nozzles is questionable from a cost benefit point since the primary reason for larger injectors if to provide max fuelling to the engine. So, choking or potentially restricting the fuel doesn't really make sense in this instance due to PW constraints.

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post #3 of 106 Old 10-09-2013, 02:20 AM
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post #4 of 106 Old 10-09-2013, 06:03 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twoicebergs View Post
You already poked it yourself. I can't remember if your 175s are plugged, but if they are, that is why the 175/stock worked so well. You should still be able to get more gain out of the injector with a slightly larger nozzle, about 20-30% (if you could find smaller ones). 190s and 40% would be a very good match to ensure the barrel is empty. I went from 75% nozzles to 50s and the smoke is definitely less. I didn't dyno after the new ones, but they seem to do about the same on a timed run.

Going larger with smaller nozzles is questionable from a cost benefit point since the primary reason for larger injectors if to provide max fuelling to the engine. So, choking or potentially restricting the fuel doesn't really make sense in this instance due to PW constraints.

Good info. Thanks. I was thinking about going to 190/30. I have never seen 40% nozzles before. I just figured I could go the the extreme just to test my theory. Sounds like you like your 50s better than 75s


I have also read many threads about people discussing how different nozzles pair with injectors and most of them are theories... I have not seen anyone try anything bigger than 190s with smaller than 30 nozzlers... What I am saying is that 190/30s have been done. I would love to hear from them.



what exactly does the 30 50 75 etc mean? Does that mean the holes are 30% larger or that they can dump the fuel 30% faster? Those do not mean the same thing.



Also many have reported they get the best fuel mileage while running an extreme tune with stock nozzles. I feel that is because the hpop is pounding so hard against the fuel and forcing so much fuel through such tiny nozzles that the atomization is better than stock (which provides a more clean, efficient burn). Once you change nozzle size I believe that you loose that ability.



I guess I am just after a much more streetable injector/nozzle combo without loosing any power... Not sure if it is possible but I would like to try

KC Turbos kcturbosinc@gmail.com
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My Current Build Thread http://www.powerstroke.org/forum/6-0...ml#post7528746

Current Setup 190/30 and KC 64mm Stage 2 turbo
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post #5 of 106 Old 10-09-2013, 06:19 AM
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I like your idea of the 190/30. I think it would be a good match smaller nozzle so you can still tow and essentially it should be able to be tuned like a 155/30 to tow with but would have much more power when you wanna have fun. I think holderdown performance has some YouTube videos on one of their trucks with 190/30 and a pmax and it does pretty good.

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post #6 of 106 Old 10-09-2013, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peixinho View Post



what exactly does the 30 50 75 etc mean? Does that mean the holes are 30% larger or that they can dump the fuel 30% faster? Those do not mean the same thing.
Yes the 30, 50,75 refers to how much larger than stock

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post #7 of 106 Old 10-09-2013, 06:54 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox Hunt View Post
Yes the 30, 50,75‰ refers to how much larger than stock

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Yes that is the part I do understand. But how are they bigger...


Being a 30% larger hole is not the same as flowing 30% more


But they are both 30% bigger. So does anyone know what the 30 50 75 means?

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My Current Build Thread http://www.powerstroke.org/forum/6-0...ml#post7528746

Current Setup 190/30 and KC 64mm Stage 2 turbo

Last edited by peixinho; 10-09-2013 at 08:18 AM.
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post #8 of 106 Old 10-09-2013, 08:34 AM
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Sorry I see what you mean. From everything Ive read and understood its the flowis xx% more.

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post #9 of 106 Old 10-09-2013, 08:34 AM
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Most guys refer to nozzles to being able to flow that much more over stock...

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post #10 of 106 Old 10-09-2013, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peixinho View Post
So... needless to say I am very disappointed with my switch from 175/stock to 175/75. Although the truck feels a little faster (like 20hp) I would say that the truck is 10 times smokier. Egts are much higher. I can hit 1200 egts on a light 1/4 throttle 0-75 mph. Although at WOT 0-100 I only hit about 1500 egts. Average cruise with 175/stock was 650-750 now with 175/75 850-950 It is flat out embarrassing to daily drive. I will dyno these injectors before switching but I will be switching soon and I wanted to get some feedback and see if anyone else has tried larger injectors with little nozzles.

My 175/stock seem to keep egts way down. Better fuel mileage. WAY LESS SMOKE. Similar power (soon to be shown on a dyno). All around much better for my use which is putting 40,000 miles a year on my truck in a metro area full of freeways and stop n go traffic. I do not want to go back down in size. I would like more power with better driveability.
The reason your 175/75s smoke more than the 175/stock is because there is flat out more fuel being dumped into the cylinder. For example, at idle, the stock nozzle can flow about 25-30 mm^3 (open spill ports). Plug the spill port an that number increases about 10mm^3. Your 75% nozzles will flow about 35-40 mm^3 at idle (open spill ports). Again plugging the spill port yields about an additional 10mm^3.

Now, if you were running a turbo that flowed a significant amount of air, you would gain far more than the small gain you felt. From what I have seen, there is a serious placebo effect when it comes to horsepower gains. When you do some mod that you think won't increase your hp, you don't really feel the hp increase, but if you think the mod will increase your hp a lot, then you feel a huge gain. The old butt dyno is incredibly unreliable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peixinho View Post
what exactly does the 30 50 75 etc mean? Does that mean the holes are 30% larger or that they can dump the fuel 30% faster? Those do not mean the same thing.

Also many have reported they get the best fuel mileage while running an extreme tune with stock nozzles. I feel that is because the hpop is pounding so hard against the fuel and forcing so much fuel through such tiny nozzles that the atomization is better than stock (which provides a more clean, efficient burn). Once you change nozzle size I believe that you loose that ability.
Depends on the manufacturer, but typically it refers to the flow rate over stock, but mroe on that in a second. As for atomization, there is really no way to test or determine if atomization is better. I would agree that a smaller nozzle can yield better atomization, however other factors come into play, plus the sheer fact aht more fuel mean more power potential. Teh internal surface of the nozzle, which is affected by how the nozzles were machined, determines how they flow, and how they atomize fuel as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RollinEarly99 View Post
Most guys refer to nozzles to being able to flow that much more over stock...
I agree, to a point. That is how they are rated, however, not necessarily how the nozzles actually perform. Typically nozzles are tested using pressurized air, not diesel fuel at over 20,000 psi. There are lots of strange things that happen with liquids at very high pressures. The point is, your 75% over rated nozzles almost certainly don't actually flow 75% faster than stock.

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