CHECKING HEADS? THE CORRECT WAY? - Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum
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  #1  
Old 08-28-2013, 07:53 PM
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CHECKING HEADS? THE CORRECT WAY?

When you guys say max allowable depth for machining the heads! Who came up with the max allowable limit? I would like to see in writing from international Navistar or Ford or Blue diamond where it is that the heads can be machined to this depth or even machined at all. Sure any machine shop can come up with a number and machine the top of the valves to match but I have never seen in writing from ford or international that heads can be machined in fact they say not too. They give a proper way to check heads and clean them im not sure if people are to lazy to clean them the correct way because it takes time i don't know! I have yet to have one set of heads come back that headgaskets have failed after doing proper cleaning of block and heads and checking flatness BY THE BOOK! NOT THE LENGTH OF THE HEAD!!!! I take time prepping my heads and am very meticulous with my straight edge checking the correct locations that international THE MANUFACTURER - MAKER - DEVELOPER of these parts has layed out in black and white on how they want them checked. I do not care or want to hear personal opinion on this just fact. I would rather have a head with all its meat than have it weakened from removal of material. I would like to see this so I can learn.

1) spec sheet from International on max allowable limit to remove?
2) No OPINIONS or I THINK why every head has to be machined WHEN THEY PASS WITH STRIAGHT EDGE AND CAN BE CLEANED PROPERLY!
3) WHY all the head jobs I have done "I have stopped counting" by the book cleaned by the book have had 0 issues!!! and none have been machined!
4) Is it the fact that it makes people feel better to have them machined and have metal removed in most cases that is NOT NEEDED!
5) Because a head wasn't machined because the proper checks where done and it was determined that machining wasn't needed DOES NOT MEAN THE JOB WASNT DONE RIGHT or everyone one of my hundreds of head jobs would have come back.

ON the other side of the coin I cannot tell you how many horror stories ive read on this forum and countless others about I just had my heads machined and my valves hit the pistons that just tells me that that machine shop just did the heads and didn't understand valve clearance to start with and I for one would not want a shop shaving my heads and not understanding the rest of the picture. I would like input from the guys that are in the business on this forum WHO WORK IN MACHINE SHOPS again not from people who know people or have heard something!! REAL MACHINESTS!!

MY POINT IS THIS! FORD AND INTERNATIONAL know way more than us and give us guidelines to follow the same with any other company out there. Doing the proper checks and cleaning will save you the hassle of having to shave your heads!

NO OPINIONS , NO HE SAID SHE SAID JUST FACT
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Old 08-28-2013, 08:04 PM
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This is going to be interesting

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Old 08-28-2013, 08:07 PM
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.... I knew I wasn't going when I posted threads about this...
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Old 08-28-2013, 09:58 PM
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Well I like to think I research things very thoroughly before doing them. And here is the FACTS that I found from MACHINISTS on this subject and I apologize I don't have the links handy but here is what the consensus of several machine shops said.

1.) after checking valve to piston clearance on countless heads they found the head has between .007-.009 to deck and be in the safe zone.

2.) the guys who did proper machined work on the SERVICABLE heads with a proper surface finish never had an issue to report.

3.) machinists who took heads down past safe zones because of warp machined and shortened valve stems to give proper clearance. Never had an issue to report.

That being said some of the main issues with powerstroke heads is cracking at the seats. Proper cleaning and a straight edge just won't fix that. Another is warped castings especially in over heat situations, same theory applies that you can fix that with cleaning or a straight edge. I don't know about anyone else but putting a cracked or warped head back on my truck would, well, not happen.

So in my case I had mine magnafluxed and no cracks. One head needed .003 taken off to be TRUE flat and another .004. The machine shop I used put the same surface finish as a factory head or reman head has. To this point the fact is I have had no issues, the machine work cost 175 bux I gave him 200 cause I am ballin LOL. Save myself the better part of 2 grand on machining vs buying new.

So my question to everyone who thinks I did this all wrong and should have bought new, the same machinists on that same forum also measured a handful of remans right from ford, NOT ONE .... AGAIN NOT ONE was flat and some warped too bad to even use. So if these guys at ford and international are so good at what they do why can't they send out a REMAN head that is friggin flat. Did they nix the QC department??? A new head would scare me more than taking a couple thousands of material off to make the head dead flat.

Any how I will report back if I ever have a failure because of machining my heads

Last edited by white59rt; 08-28-2013 at 10:03 PM.
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Old 08-28-2013, 11:55 PM
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Dale, Todd has very valid points. These heads are well known to develop cracks in the seat areas and as said checking with a straight edge does nothing to tell you about that. Ford sells only reman'd heads now. Are you telling me these heads have NO MACHINE WORK? So if Ford sells nothing but reman'd heads they must be machinable.

Look through Jared's thread on machining the 6.0. He does work in a machine shop that does 6.0 heads every day. Namely Blackwater engines. Lots of god info and pics there on this very topic.

Congrats on your success rate with these and I know what an awesome tech you are but if my heads come off they're going to the machine shop.

Have you ever measured the PTV clearance on a stock motor. If not could you do so on your next head gasket job? That will give us a good reference for how mach is safe to take off the heads.

Last edited by PGreenSVT; 08-29-2013 at 05:20 AM.
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  #6  
Old 08-29-2013, 03:51 AM
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Right on Jug, I love these discussions when WOMs(word of mouth) are questioned. There are plenty and educated arguments can only educate and benefit all members. These forums spawn WOMs and these discussions are so beneficial.

Though I must add, I don't know where I stand on this one. Machine work and head jobs go back as far as the performance industry, so pretty much industry standard, I cannot offer insight on this thread, just excited to learn.

Last edited by jetjock15; 08-29-2013 at 03:55 AM.
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  #7  
Old 08-29-2013, 03:57 AM
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you can buy new heads from international i dont care what ford offers... international says no machining period. It's just a vt365 engine that has been out for a long time now and they make new parts for it
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Old 08-29-2013, 04:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by white59rt View Post
Well I like to think I research things very thoroughly before doing them. And here is the FACTS that I found from MACHINISTS on this subject and I apologize I don't have the links handy but here is what the consensus of several machine shops said.

1.) after checking valve to piston clearance on countless heads they found the head has between .007-.009 to deck and be in the safe zone.

2.) the guys who did proper machined work on the SERVICABLE heads with a proper surface finish never had an issue to report.

3.) machinists who took heads down past safe zones because of warp machined and shortened valve stems to give proper clearance. Never had an issue to report.

That being said some of the main issues with powerstroke heads is cracking at the seats. Proper cleaning and a straight edge just won't fix that. Another is warped castings especially in over heat situations, same theory applies that you can fix that with cleaning or a straight edge. I don't know about anyone else but putting a cracked or warped head back on my truck would, well, not happen.

So in my case I had mine magnafluxed and no cracks. One head needed .003 taken off to be TRUE flat and another .004. The machine shop I used put the same surface finish as a factory head or reman head has. To this point the fact is I have had no issues, the machine work cost 175 bux I gave him 200 cause I am ballin LOL. Save myself the better part of 2 grand on machining vs buying new.

So my question to everyone who thinks I did this all wrong and should have bought new, the same machinists on that same forum also measured a handful of remans right from ford, NOT ONE .... AGAIN NOT ONE was flat and some warped too bad to even use. So if these guys at ford and international are so good at what they do why can't they send out a REMAN head that is friggin flat. Did they nix the QC department??? A new head would scare me more than taking a couple thousands of material off to make the head dead flat.

Any how I will report back if I ever have a failure because of machining my heads
This is why im posting this. If he checked new reman heads with a striaght edge the way ford said too not lenght wise but from intake to exhaust or the 13 points to check I find it impossible that a new head would have a .004 deviation on the deck there just is now way. As for seat cracks this is also inpectable and makes a head replacible in my book.
But back to my question I want to see from international where heads can be decked to this spec. Again all I see is do not machine heads. My point is im still learning because im not on the machining siad so I really dont know. Maybe they got paperwork I have not seen this happens alot.
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  #9  
Old 08-29-2013, 04:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 04cr450 View Post
you can buy new heads from international i dont care what ford offers... international says no machining period. It's just a vt365 engine that has been out for a long time now and they make new parts for it
Yes you are correct
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  #10  
Old 08-29-2013, 04:10 AM
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This thread was not started to flame but to learn so please lets keep it professional and fact based. Ty im still learning everyday and that will not stop ever.
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