Larger injectors w/ stock nozzles @ WOT - Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum
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post #1 of 39 Old 08-19-2013, 11:12 AM Thread Starter
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Larger injectors w/ stock nozzles @ WOT

So I'm just curious since I know larger injectors dont make the power up top that injectors with nozzles do, but is there still a minimal gain? It seems to me there is still got to be some gain, but certainly not like there would be with nozzles. Just curious if anyone had a dyno run comparison or personal experience.

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post #2 of 39 Old 08-19-2013, 11:59 AM
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175/30... Just do it Alex!!! Casserly's!!!

Aaron 2005 f250 552/1040 45k miles
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post #3 of 39 Old 08-19-2013, 12:06 PM
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I am researching this subject myself and should have side by side dyno charts in about a month... For now I can show you what 175/stock nozzles and a 68mm vgt turbo can do. I had no other upgrades, no ficm tuner, no intake, no ported manifold, no water/meth, etc. I am hoping in about 1 month to add nozzles to the truck and overlay the graphs to see how it affects performance.



You can see that it made a ton of power/toruqe right away in the lower rpm range (where most people drive daily), but once it go high up in the rpm the fuel started to drop off because of the stock nozzles holding back the injectors. The pulse width of the injector can only go so far. Once the motor starts spinning fast enough the pulse width cant empty the 175cc from the barrels fast enough.

These are of course just my theories and from much research I have done.

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Current Setup 190/30 and KC 64mm Stage 2 turbo

Last edited by peixinho; 08-19-2013 at 12:58 PM.
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post #4 of 39 Old 08-19-2013, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peixinho View Post
I am researching this subject myself and should have side by side dyno charts in about a month... For now I can show you what 175/stock nozzles and a 68mm vgt turbo can do. I had no other upgrades, no ficm tuner, no intake, no ported manifold, no water/meth, etc. I am hoping in about 1 month to add nozzles to the truck and overlay the graphs to see how it affects performance.



You can see that it made a ton of power/toruqe right away in the lower rpm range (where most people drive daily), but once it go high up in the rpm the fuel started to drop off because of the stock nozzles holding back the injectors. The pulse width of the injector can only go so far. Once the motor starts spinning fast enough the pulse width cant empty the 175cc from the barrels fast enough.

These are of course just my theories and from much research I have done.
Very nice, like to see the differences for sure. Members like you are what is needed to help find truth or not about things, I would love to do dyno things but no dynos around me. The whole injector thing is still up in the air, about the nozzle sizing. The 75% nozzles on my 225 seem better then my 205/150 did.

2004 F250 Ext.cab fabtech 5.5" lift,and traction bars 35" on 18".2005-2007 grill and LED headlights,58v FICM, Warren dual HPOP system, fuel reg. return system, areo 1000a fuel pump, dual fuel filters, ARP studded heads, CCV reroute, EGR delete, 225/75 Warren injectors, water/meth injection (cooling mist),SCT tuner with customs, banks intercooler. MTW stage 4 turbo, built trans by Andy Warren, 4:10 Detroit lockers.
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post #5 of 39 Old 08-19-2013, 01:53 PM
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Let me first preface this with, "I am NOT an injector expert". However, I have done quite a bit of research on this subject. In my opinion, injector nozzles are for more than just making more peak power. I know we all want our trucks to be well rounded and be able to do mult-service duty, but if that is the case then one of the key aspects to them being able to do that is RELIABILITY. And reliability is achieved when cylinder pressures are kept in check. And cylinder pressures are kept in check (when more fuel and air is added) by not advancing the timing as much. And more fuel is able to be delivered in a given pulse width by not advancing the time with a larger nozzle.

Now of course, this all has to be maintained in balance. I.e. I wouldn't put 150% nozzles on a 190cc injector. As far as smoke and EGTs go (both are kind of subjective factors as far as tolerability goes IMO), I believe this has to do with atomization of the fuel, which I believe is affected by the nozzle size and ICP.

So while Charlie, will be showing a dyno graph for the difference in peak power between 175 stock injectors and (I believe) 75% nozzles, I would be more interested in the changes in PW and the amount of retardation of the timing to make said power gain.

As far as sizing a nozzle size to the "percent increase in body capacity over stock" goes, I think a stock injector is not a good model to go off of as those performance tunes can demand quite a bit of advancment in the timing.

Just some food for thought. Hope it helps.

Nate
2006 F350 (BACKYARDIGAN) - 67mm Turbo, 215/85 injectors, WPE intake manifold, NB/Warren Trans, and more stuff that I don't care to mention....
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post #6 of 39 Old 08-19-2013, 02:06 PM
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well my hypothesis as to how the power will change might have come out wrong. I feel the peak torque will change very little, but the torque will be more usable throughout the rpm range. The hp will go up but that is just because the hp is derived from the torque values.

Here is a crude paint drawing of what I would imagine nozzles would do to the dyno graph if the tune was left the same, or at least a max hp tune was used.




Now if I am following what Nate (windrunner) is saying then hypothetically with larger nozzles you could shorten the pulse width/retard the timing slightly, get the same power, but do it with much less cylinder pressure which is much safer and more reliable... Right???

KC Turbos kcturbosinc@gmail.com
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post #7 of 39 Old 08-19-2013, 02:29 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peixinho View Post
I am researching this subject myself and should have side by side dyno charts in about a month... For now I can show you what 175/stock nozzles and a 68mm vgt turbo can do. I had no other upgrades, no ficm tuner, no intake, no ported manifold, no water/meth, etc. I am hoping in about 1 month to add nozzles to the truck and overlay the graphs to see how it affects performance.



You can see that it made a ton of power/toruqe right away in the lower rpm range (where most people drive daily), but once it go high up in the rpm the fuel started to drop off because of the stock nozzles holding back the injectors. The pulse width of the injector can only go so far. Once the motor starts spinning fast enough the pulse width cant empty the 175cc from the barrels fast enough.

These are of course just my theories and from much research I have done.
Nice this is exactly what I hoped to see. If you only gain say 30 HP is it really worth double for the injectors? Depends on the persons goals and thats something else I'm taking into consideration. Most people want to get 500 and 175/stock is pretty solid at doing it. So how much is gained and is it cost worthy for the average joe

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MBRP 4" Exhaust, ARPs, Barder Stage 2 turbo, S&B CAI, TSD SPD, Warren Competition transmission, Edge CTS, Coolant Filter, High Idle Mod, CCV Mod, Zoodad, Newton Leveling kit, Fuel Mavericks 20x9 , Pioneer DVD head-unit, JL Stealthbox and JL Slash 500/1v2 amp
Future Mods:
Injectors and Driven Diesel RR
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Last edited by Fox Hunt; 08-19-2013 at 03:03 PM.
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post #8 of 39 Old 08-19-2013, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Fox Hunt View Post
Nice this is exactly what I hoped to see. If you only gain say 30 HP is it really worth double for the injectors? Depends on the persons goals and thats something else I'm taking into consideration

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You might be doubling the cost of the injector but as Nate said, more fuel through a stock nozzle will require timing changes that could effect the trucks performance...in an unpredictable manner.

Shack

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post #9 of 39 Old 08-19-2013, 04:16 PM Thread Starter
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Okay so let me ask this. I have thought about 190/30s if I was gonna go all the way with nozzles cause for the cost why not bump it up some. Would 190/30 be similar to 175/stock as far as timing advancement or would that they be safer? I know my say go 75% or 100% nozzles then, but I don't want to so don't say it. I'd like to keep the stock pump, and still be able to use the truck for towing if need be. I think 30% are the max I would want if I tow, since its more about the nozzle size anyway when it comes to tuning the truck

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2006 F-350 CCSB Lariat
MBRP 4" Exhaust, ARPs, Barder Stage 2 turbo, S&B CAI, TSD SPD, Warren Competition transmission, Edge CTS, Coolant Filter, High Idle Mod, CCV Mod, Zoodad, Newton Leveling kit, Fuel Mavericks 20x9 , Pioneer DVD head-unit, JL Stealthbox and JL Slash 500/1v2 amp
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post #10 of 39 Old 08-19-2013, 05:02 PM
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My opinion would be to just run some like one off 165/30s.

Nate
2006 F350 (BACKYARDIGAN) - 67mm Turbo, 215/85 injectors, WPE intake manifold, NB/Warren Trans, and more stuff that I don't care to mention....
2006 F250 (LITTLE DURTY) - WPE Manifold, Up-pipes, EGR delete kit, and Tuned By ME
BULLET PROOF DIESEL 1-888-967-6653
KC TUROS - Not just a modified Powermax...

WINDRUNNER PERFORMANCE ENGINEERING
WWW.WPEDIESEL.COM

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