important info on turbines for VGT turbos:: - Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum
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post #1 of 26 Old 07-29-2013, 12:48 AM Thread Starter
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important info on turbines for VGT turbos::

I have read a lot of threads about members wanting to build their own turbos. I also wanted to help out with so info that I have gathered on the turbines. I have also been told that I'm a hobbyist and really don't know anything about turbos, one because I don't own a VS balance machine to balance turbos, and other is since I came out of nowhere I must not know what I'm talking about. Both are matter of opinion and I have proven that I do know something about what I must be doing due to the amount of success that I have proven time and time again. I'm not starting this thread to debate al that stuff just to do what I have always done supply information for 6.0 powerstroke owners and to help out others. Here is a picture of how many turbos I have built in about a 16 month period, each compressor wheel represents one turbo.

important info on turbines for VGT turbos::-618.jpg

important info on turbines for VGT turbos::-619.jpg

I have learned a lot building many ,many turbos about 280 and more. I started with the Dura stroke which was a Duramax front compressor, since then I moved to finding the right machinist which took a little while to machining the housing just right for the most power I could get out of the wheel. I have gone and still go through growing pains, I do have a full time job, and really don't want to expand into a big time shop due to having overhead. As of now the reason the prices are low on some of the turbo is due to not having overhead. Read on next section I have to add a lot of pictures with the info so I have to keep posting to show all the pictures. It is also the reason I started this tread in mid morning so I could get all the info out without having to have members post between the posts.

2004 F250 Ext.cab fabtech 5.5" lift,and traction bars 35" on 18".2005-2007 grill and LED headlights,58v FICM, Warren dual HPOP system, fuel reg. return system, areo 1000a fuel pump, dual fuel filters, ARP studded heads, CCV reroute, EGR delete, 225/75 Warren injectors, water/meth injection (cooling mist),SCT tuner with customs, banks intercooler. MTW stage 4 turbo, built trans by Andy Warren, 4:10 Detroit lockers.
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post #2 of 26 Old 07-29-2013, 01:04 AM Thread Starter
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OK so here we go about the turbine wheel. A 03 turbo has the biggest gt37 turbine wheel of all the Powerstroke turbos. Fact is the 03 turbine wheel is the same part number and wheel as the Powermax wheel, it measures 72.5mm/66mm, and is a 10 blade wheel is not interchangeable with a 04 or any other year turbine wheel. The wheel won't fit in any other turbine housing with out machining to make it fit. Now the 04 wheel is a 13 blade turbine wheel that measures the same as the 03 72.5mm/66mm but is shorter on the inducer by about 1.5mm. The 05-07 wheels are all 13 blade turbine wheels, there is not 15 blade wheel, as some have stated in the pass. These wheels measure 72.0mm/63.6mm, these are all considered as gt37va wheels, noticed I said va which is same a VGT, which I will talk about later. The gt40va wheel that is used by Garrett on their gt4094va Powermax for the Duramax measures 76.3mm/67.8mm. There isn't a gt42VGT turbo that was produced for Duramax or any other truck that I know of so that is your turbine choices. Here's some pictures of the turbines side by side including the non VGT various.

important info on turbines for VGT turbos::-624.jpg

important info on turbines for VGT turbos::-625.jpg

2004 F250 Ext.cab fabtech 5.5" lift,and traction bars 35" on 18".2005-2007 grill and LED headlights,58v FICM, Warren dual HPOP system, fuel reg. return system, areo 1000a fuel pump, dual fuel filters, ARP studded heads, CCV reroute, EGR delete, 225/75 Warren injectors, water/meth injection (cooling mist),SCT tuner with customs, banks intercooler. MTW stage 4 turbo, built trans by Andy Warren, 4:10 Detroit lockers.
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post #3 of 26 Old 07-29-2013, 01:33 AM Thread Starter
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Let's talk about some of the experimenting that I have done with the turbine wheels. Can you use a Non VGT turbine wheel in a VGT turbo, yes you can make them fit by clipping the blades, which is cutting down the diameter of the turbine, or playing with the vanes, shorting the vanes to fit the wheel in.
I have done a lot of experimenting with this because it makes the turbo into a nasty monster. First thing I learned is that a 360 thrust bearing is a must, the other thing I learned is that the wheels don't last.

I tried clipping, shorting the vanes, both and haven't had any luck at all. In fact I talked to Fleece diesel performance and they told me that that was the wheel they used in their Cheetah turbo, and nicknamed it the melt away. They also tried all the methods list without success, it works for a while but if EGT's get to high about 1500-1700 for too long say 1/4 mile run the tips of the turbine wheel melt off. Why? well it seems that Garrett uses a thicker blade turbine wheel for their VGT turbo than their Non VGT turbos. The tips on the gt37va turbine wheel no matter what year and 10 or 13 blade all measure the same .85mm. The Non VGT turbine wheel tips measure at .65mm, which is thinner by .20mm, so big deal right? well the thickness of the turbine blade needs to be thicker due to the stress that the tips get on them by the vanes. The thinner tips heat up and then the vanes basically act like a blow torch on the tips and blow them away. I have pictures of all of this and will post them on here, so basically your choices are limited on the turbine wheel, Garrett won't sell the gt4094va turbine wheel by itself, so for me to get one I have to buy the whole gt4094va turbo just to make the stage 3 and stage 4. I don't clip the turbine wheel I machine the turbine housing for the new dowel pins, unison ring, bore size for the gt4094va wheel to fit the way it fits for the original specs from Garrett. The Non VGT wheels that Fleece and I both used are out of the gt4088. I had a lot of them and they came in two different sizes smaller 75.70mm/70.2mm and bigger 77.5mm/70.4mm and were Garrett factory wheels I got out of the stage 2 I used to build. Hope this info helps out some of the members to better understand what option there are.

important info on turbines for VGT turbos::-626.jpg

important info on turbines for VGT turbos::-627.jpg

important info on turbines for VGT turbos::-629.jpg

important info on turbines for VGT turbos::-630.jpg

important info on turbines for VGT turbos::-631.jpg

Next post shows the damage that I have had with trying to make the Non VGT wheels work.

2004 F250 Ext.cab fabtech 5.5" lift,and traction bars 35" on 18".2005-2007 grill and LED headlights,58v FICM, Warren dual HPOP system, fuel reg. return system, areo 1000a fuel pump, dual fuel filters, ARP studded heads, CCV reroute, EGR delete, 225/75 Warren injectors, water/meth injection (cooling mist),SCT tuner with customs, banks intercooler. MTW stage 4 turbo, built trans by Andy Warren, 4:10 Detroit lockers.
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post #4 of 26 Old 07-29-2013, 01:45 AM Thread Starter
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Here's the damage to the wheels from EGT's from 1500-1700, and higher on some. What happens is over time the turbine blade tips melt and get blown off by the air of the vanes. More and more get blown off until the turbine becomes unbalanced and then eats the bearings, when that happens the turbine shaft either seizes and snaps or the compressor eats the compressor housing and throws aluminum pieces into the intercooler.

important info on turbines for VGT turbos::-637.jpg

important info on turbines for VGT turbos::-638.jpg

important info on turbines for VGT turbos::-639.jpg

important info on turbines for VGT turbos::-640.jpg

important info on turbines for VGT turbos::-641.jpg

The turbo that James, Mitch and I have ran all came to the same outcome failure. The last turbine wheel actually ate the turbine housing and scraped it as well as center housing, compressor, and backing plate.

2004 F250 Ext.cab fabtech 5.5" lift,and traction bars 35" on 18".2005-2007 grill and LED headlights,58v FICM, Warren dual HPOP system, fuel reg. return system, areo 1000a fuel pump, dual fuel filters, ARP studded heads, CCV reroute, EGR delete, 225/75 Warren injectors, water/meth injection (cooling mist),SCT tuner with customs, banks intercooler. MTW stage 4 turbo, built trans by Andy Warren, 4:10 Detroit lockers.
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post #5 of 26 Old 07-29-2013, 03:36 AM
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What if you kept EGT below 1300? Towing heavy on some steep climbs I'd want egt 1100-1200 max. I would never feel comfortable running higher egts, unless truck was a dedicated puller with monotherms.
Being able to have big power and keep your foot in it power wise is the main reason many of us look at the hybrid turbos. ie having the turbo keep EGTs in check using the vgt technology. Other option is compounds, but on a 6.0L its not as simple due to space.
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post #6 of 26 Old 07-29-2013, 03:59 AM
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Good info Adrian... I remember this when we spoke last. Nice to see the pics.

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post #7 of 26 Old 07-29-2013, 04:54 AM
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Great info and good pics of the carnage. Hopefully this will save guys wanting to try building their own turbo from having to reinvent the wheel, pun intended.
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post #8 of 26 Old 07-29-2013, 05:36 AM
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Small is how NASCAR started. One might say it is still small, but extremely technologically advanced. Small is fine, if the R & D is done. What I like best is that Adrian is willing to share the info, not to snow or scare the customer, nor sugar-coat it. The smart ones will come knocking. The tinkerers can now replicate or perhaps even stumble on to a eureka moment, or not.

There is a lot of work to get it all to come together, including identifying the weaknesses. Thanks for posting the info Adrian.

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Stiction Problems - Fix it yourself! - http://www.powerstroke.org/forum/gen...ml#post4509754
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post #9 of 26 Old 07-29-2013, 05:56 AM
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Good info,definetly makes sense.

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post #10 of 26 Old 07-29-2013, 09:41 AM
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Very good info!!! This is a lot of the stuff I have been going over for the last few weeks trying to find the perfect turbine... which seems to only come in the gt4094va and is not sold separately

I also found out the hard way about the 03 10 blade turbine not fitting in any of the other turbine housings... I bought all the pieces and it did not fit. I tried a couple of different years. As you stated it was not till I noticed/thought about the difference in the inducer length. Even though the wheel measures the same... the inducer is longer on the 03 10 blade turbine


If only I had found such a great writeup like this one a couple of weeks ago


Thanks Adrian

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My Current Build Thread http://www.powerstroke.org/forum/6-0...ml#post7528746

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