Proposal Thread: Custom Turbocharger for 6.0L - Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum
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  #1  
Old 07-28-2013, 02:49 PM
The Silent Service

 

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Proposal Thread: Custom Turbocharger for 6.0L

Purpose:
This could be a long shot thread, or this could lead to something remarkable.

After over a year of searching for the proper turbocharger for my TowBoss build, I'm just about to throw in the towel and start learning how to modify these turbos to craft a one-of-one turbo for my rather specific application. The goal of this build has always been break 500RWHP with a solid race file, and dial in a stock level file for heavy towing at high altitudes (26K Gross, and over 12,000 ft) and be drivable on Ford's programming (though this last requirement there is starting to fall lower on priorities list). I was looking strongly at the MTW Stage 2, however it has since been discontinued.

I'm getting to the point where a turbo supplier, any supplier, doesn't seem to have exactly what I am looking for, or has an excessive wait time, etc. I feel that with my schedule, building my own solution that I have full control of makes more since. That is, if the project can be considered achievable.

Current Market Offerings:
So we take the stock turbos specifications:

Stock (GT3782VA)-- Comp: 59mm x 82mm T-52 (03-04s) 57mm x 82mm T-__ (05-07s) .58A/R -- Turb: 72.5mm x 64.0mm (05-07) (72.5mm x 66.4mm, 03-04 and 13 blades on both) T-78 .90A/R

And we look at what is on the market currently that falls into the level of my build:

MTW Stage 1 LBZ (Discontinued)-- Comp: 62.8mm x 88mm T-51 .58A/R -- Turb: 72.5mm x 64.0mm (Or 72.5mm x 66.4mm, both 13 bladed turbines) T-78 .90A/R
MTW Stage 1 LLY (Discontinued)-- Comp: 63.5mm x 88mm T-52 .58A/R -- Turb: 72.5mm x 64.0mm (Or 72.5mm x 66.4mm, both 13 bladed turbines) T-78 .90A/R
MTW Stage 1 -- 63.5mm x 88m T-52 .58A/R-- Turb: 72.5mm x 64.0mm (Or 72.5mm x 66.4mm, both 13 bladed turbines)T-78 .90A/R
MTW HYBRID -- Comp: 64.7mm x 88mm T-54 .58A/R -- Turb: 72.5mm x 64mm Or 72.5mm x 66.4mm, both 13 bladed turbines
MTW Stage 2 (GT4088)(Discontinued)-- Comp: 64.7mm x 88mm T-54 .72A/R -- Turb: 72.5mm x 64mm Or 72.5mm x 66.4mm, both 13 bladed turbines

Garrett Powermax -- 63.5mm x 88m T-52 .58A/R-- Turb: 72.5mm x 66.4mm 10 bladed turbine.
MTW Powermax -- 64.7mm x 88mm T-54 .58A/R Comp: -- Turb: 13 or 10 blade 72.5mm x 66.4mm
Peixinhos 68mmKC -- Comp: 67.8mm x 94mm T-59 .58A/R -- Turb: (Unknown)

MTW Stage 3 (GT4094)-- Comp: 67.8mm x 94mm T-52 .58A/R -- Turb: 77mm x 68mm Larger than Stock GT40 Series - 10 Blade)

I list the MTW Stage 3 here, because of the reduction of back pressure with this larger turbine wheel over that of a 13 blade GT37. This is a very interesting aspect of this, and if there are 13 blade versions of larger turbine wheels available they will be investigated (not sure if there even is any). This would be the absolute upper limit tier built turbo for this truck, based on a max injector of 155/30s(or stock nozzles). It is something for me to look at, but I am leary of a compressor that large with small injectors.

The other aspect of the Stage 3 is the possibility of clipping the wheel a bit, raising the trim value and seeing what happens. Say clipping it to a 67.8mm x 88mm T-59. Pitfall of this plan is getting every blade trimmed perfectly without any structural stress, and maintaining a balanced wheel.

An interesting Alternative(s):
There was another idea suggested to me quite a while ago, looking at a GT35 series wheel:

Random Idea -- Comp: 62.5mm x 82.5mm T-58 (from GTX3582R) .58A/R -- Turb:68mm x 62mm T-84 (from GT3571Va-early F450/F550 trucks)

Could theoretically mate this compressor to a my stock turbine with some machine work and see what we end up with. The compressor maps as I look at them seem very positive that it would be a great set up - though final power numbers may lay slightly shy of the 500RWHP goal. This is a smaller wheel that the current MTW Stage 1, really a minor gain over the stock compressor. Mating this wheel to a GT37 series turbine could make it a viable towing option.

Reading over Adrian's thread I have another promising concept turbo, a re-creation of the MTW Stage 2:

GT4088 for Baseline-- Comp: 64.7mm x 88mm T-54 .72A/R -- Turb(Preferred): 72.5mm x 66.4mm T-83 .90A/R (From an '04) Or Turb(Alternate) 72.5mm x 64mm, both 13 bladed turbines T-78 .90A/R (From '05-'07)

--Or taking that one step further (depending on what my Back Pressure would look like and how the truck would respond):

GT4088 for Baseline-- Comp: 64.7mm x 88mm T-54 .72A/R -- Turb: 77mm x 68mm Larger than Stock GT40 Series - 10 Blade)

Take that GT4088 and mate it with the turbine out of the GT4094, would take considerably more machine work and expense (follows a similar concept as the GTX35 series idea). And I may run into a similar problem - simply too much surgeing / or too much lag.

Compressor Maps:
Stock and Powermax Compressor Map:


GTX3582R Compressor Map:


GT4088 Compressor Map:


GT4094 Compressor Map:


Estimated Costs:
Stock Turbocharger in great shape: $450.00 Remanufactured: $xxx.xx
Garretts Rebuild Kit with 360* thrust bearing: $160.00
Billet Upgrade Wheel of the size chosen: $400.00
Machine Work on the Compressor/Wheel: (Unknown)
Balancing of the Compressor and Turbine Wheel: $65.00

Where it could get worse:
GT4088 Compressor housing: $xxx.xx
Powermax Compressor housing: $xxx.xx
Trimming a Billet Wheel: $xxx.xx

--Doing the whole job over again because something doesn't go right the first time, or the turbo build is too large / too small for my application (which simply results in me selling the prototype and starting from the bottom).

The Way this whole project would come together:

-Find a low mileage Stock turbocharger for the right price.
-Initial Inspection, and Cleaning.
-Upon reciept of the correct wheel, and compressor housing (if required) get the machine shop to conduct the required modifications to the compressor housing / wheel (as well as shaft if required)
-After all parts are on hand, rebuild the turbo with the Garrett kit, and prepare the turbo for installation.

-I intend to have solid numbers for each stage of this thing, so this is where I would go get the base numbers for my stock setup, running my current race file, and Fords programming. More to follow as I get to this stage.

-Install the new turbo, get the relearn process complete, and get the initial numbers for the truck under Ford Programming. This gives us the initial progress of the gains made without adding programming (which is at this point somewhat expected), and on the stock Intake Manifold and Air Filter (Yes, even going to get some testing with an aftermarket air box).

With each set of changes I decide to make, or for those attempts that fail completely - I'll keep the thread up to date.

For the ORG:
So, I'm looking for input from members on the ORG as to holes in my plan. See what others have done without simply running 'Insert Brand Here's" Stage "X/max" 'charger.

I'm just getting comfortable at least understanding the theories behind what makes a specific 'charger work. I realize though there has got to be something out there I am overlooking.

Also, if there are members/vendors that come across this thread and know of additional wheel sizes, compressor or turbine side that are in this range, be sure to bring them up.

Last edited by colo_dually; 07-29-2013 at 04:08 PM.
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  #2  
Old 07-28-2013, 03:51 PM
BACKYARDIGAN


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by colo_dually View Post
...So we take the stock turbos specifications:

Stock (GT3782VA)-- Comp: 59mm x 82mm (03-04s) (57mm x 82mm, 05-07) T-52 .58A/R -- Turb: 72.5mm x 64.0mm (05-07) (72.5mm x 66.4mm, 03-04 and 13 blades on both) T-78 .90A/R

And we look at what is on the market currently that falls into the level of my build:

MTW Stage 1 LBZ (Discontinued)-- Comp: 62.8mm x 88mm T-51 .58A/R -- Turb: 72.5mm x 64.0mm (Or 72.5mm x 66.4mm, both 13 bladed turbines) T-78 .90A/R
MTW Stage 1 LLY (Discontinued)-- Comp: 63.5mm x 88mm T-52 .58A/R -- Turb: 72.5mm x 64.0mm (Or 72.5mm x 66.4mm, both 13 bladed turbines) T-78 .90A/R
MTW Stage 1 -- 63.5mm x 88m T-52 .58A/R-- Turb: 72.5mm x 64.0mm (Or 72.5mm x 66.4mm, both 13 bladed turbines) T-78 .90A/R
MTW HYBRID -- Comp: 64.7mm x 88mm T-54 -- Turb: 72.5mm x 64mm Or 72.5mm x 66.4mm, both 13 bladed turbines
MTW Stage 2 (GT4088)(Discontinued)-- Comp: 64.7mm x 88mm T-54 .72A/R -- Turb: 72.5mm x 64mm Or 72.5mm x 66.4mm, both 13 bladed turbines

Garrett Powermax -- 63.5mm x 88m T-52 .58A/R-- Turb: 72.5mm x 66.4mm 10 bladed turbine.
MTW Powermax -- 64.7mm x 88mm T-54 .58A/R Comp: -- Turb: 13 or 10 blade 72.5mm x 66.4mm
Peixinhos 68mmKC -- Comp: 68mm x 88mm T-59 .58A/R -- Turb: (Unknown)

MTW Stage 3 (GT4094)-- Comp: 67.8mm x 94mm T-52 .58A/R -- Turb: 77mm x 68mm Larger than Stock GT40 Series - 10 Blade)
...
Filled in the turbine wheel specs in RED for ya. I guess I should say that there was also always the option of folks to be able to get the 03/Pmax, 72.5mm x 66.4mm, 10 blade turbine wheel in any of the
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Old 07-28-2013, 03:59 PM
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I can tell ya Ben that there aren't a lot of turbine wheel options that haven't been explored. I can tell ya that if you go beyond either the GT37 or GT40 turbines, A LOT of HEAVY modifications are required to get the wheel to fit. I also don't think that if you are dead set on using factory programming, that deviating from the GT37 turbine wheel (10 or 13 bladed version) is a good idea either.

Funny you should mention the 67.8x88 wheel....
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Old 07-28-2013, 04:30 PM
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Interesting thread ill refer to it often just cause you compiled all the specs for the different turbos in one post. Question for you Colo, what injectors will you run in the end and why won't the current billet S1 MTW (what I have) work for you? I run an aggressive tow file and Ficm tune on 155/30s and the S1 keeps up, what's your additional requirement? You going 175s? if so, than i agree bigger turbo better in that case.
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Old 07-28-2013, 04:50 PM
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When are you thinking about starting the process Ben?
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Old 07-28-2013, 05:05 PM
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Interesting. .. as I am in the market for a turbo upgrade to make my 155/30's happier.
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Old 07-28-2013, 05:05 PM
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Well I feel honored to even be on the list... the wheel I am using is actually a 67.8x94 on the compressor side but I have not decided on a turbine yet... I am still playing around with a couple of different options.

I love threads like these
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Old 07-28-2013, 05:47 PM
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Ben, I may have some interesting info for you, pm sent.
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Old 07-28-2013, 05:53 PM
The Silent Service

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by windrunner408 View Post
Filled in the turbine wheel specs in RED for ya. I guess I should say that there was also always the option of folks to be able to get the 03/Pmax, 72.5mm x 66.4mm, 10 blade turbine wheel in any of the
Thanks for the loose ends there - I'm sure it will come in handy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by windrunner408 View Post
I can tell ya Ben that there aren't a lot of turbine wheel options that haven't been explored. I can tell ya that if you go beyond either the GT37 or GT40 turbines, A LOT of HEAVY modifications are required to get the wheel to fit. I also don't think that if you are dead set on using factory programming, that deviating from the GT37 turbine wheel (10 or 13 bladed version) is a good idea either.

Funny you should mention the 67.8x88 wheel....
The turbine may be a tricky end of the equasion, if I get a break through it could change a lot of the current market. I also realize shifting to the GT40 turbine will require some work to get in that housing - not something I'm quite ready to look too deeply into just yet.

As for the factory programming, its a requirement to remain streetable under factory programming (at least enough to nurse it to a dealer anyway), it would be nice to tow heavy under factory programming still (but as time passes, it is really holding me back).

What makes you say: "Funny you should mention the 67.8x88 wheel"

Quote:
Originally Posted by jetjock15 View Post
Interesting thread ill refer to it often just cause you compiled all the specs for the different turbos in one post. Question for you Colo, what injectors will you run in the end and why won't the current billet S1 MTW (what I have) work for you? I run an aggressive tow file and Ficm tune on 155/30s and the S1 keeps up, what's your additional requirement? You going 175s? if so, than i agree bigger turbo better in that case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rattlesnake18 View Post
When are you thinking about starting the process Ben?
Process has a couple of kinks, first I need to work out the details, then find the time away from work before I deploy to get it built, tested and installed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peixinho View Post
Well I feel honored to even be on the list... the wheel I am using is actually a 67.8x94 on the compressor side but I have not decided on a turbine yet... I am still playing around with a couple of different options.

I love threads like these
You're recent thread got my mind going down the path of doing one of these myself actually. I have updated the OP accordingly with your info.
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Old 07-28-2013, 05:54 PM
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I have been researching this answer in other places and figured maybe this is the place to post it... what is the difference between the MTW stage 2 and hybrid???

They both seem to have the exact same specs. The only difference I can find is the stage 2 used the 4088 compressor housing and the hybrid uses a modified stock housing. Also the hybrid has gotten some poor reviews while the stage 2 has had a ton of great reviews... so what exactly is the difference?


EDIT: I did not post this to derail your thread. It sounds like we are in a very similar situation. I saw you were interested in the stage 2 as was I, but sadly it is discontinued. Maybe the info between the stage 2 and hybrid might help us both.

Last edited by peixinho; 07-28-2013 at 06:01 PM.
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