MTW stage 1 VS Powermax and turbo info::: - Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum
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Old 06-15-2013, 11:34 PM
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MTW stage 1 VS Powermax and turbo info:::

I will give you info only on the two to help your decision. It based on experiance, and info I have gained. I was going to respond to a thread on stage 1 vs powermax but there is so much info I thought just start a new one to get the info out.

Now before I have a bunch of powermax owners taking shots at me, remember one thing, I have numbers to prove all I say and have built over 250 turbos and counting, I know a lot about the 6.0 powerstroke turbos, not all but probability more than any other members on here, just due to how many I have played with. I have also know why the powermax performs the way it does. I'm more than happy to help anyone one out and will answer questions anyone may have about turbos.

First of all I don't like to build the MTW stage 1 turbos with a 03 (10 blade wheel). The MTW stage 1 turbo, is 850.00 with the billet wheel + 450.00 for refundable core charge. The turbine wheel is a 13 blade wheel, for quicker spooling, and throttle response.

So what is the advantage of the MTW stage 1 over the out of the box powermax:
First tuning is easier, and spool is faster, flows more air, so makes more power.Spool is a combination of billet wheel and the 13 blade turbine wheel.

The Out of the box powermax lowest price I have seen is 1175.00 and no core charge and depending of year and condition of stock turbo 250.00-400.00 is what you can get for one so 1175.00 -400.00 = 775.00, if you want a billet wheel in it to spool faster and flow more air add 240.00 + 775.00= 1015.00. Warranty same on them, and the powermax is new.

The powermax has a 70% chance of working on stock injected truck and the MTW has 98% chance, with bigger injectors and tuning the powermax goes up to 85%, put the billet wheel in the powermax and it will go to 95-96%.

Now how the hell can I know all those numbers, I would call B.S. but there are reasons. Ready to learn something? so here is what I have learned taking that many turbos apart including powermaxs. The 03 stock powerstroke turbo has the same turbine wheel as the powermax, exactly the same, interchangable between the two. Yes if you put a MTW stage 1 compressor housing on a 03 powerstroke turbo bam powermax.(and with a billet compessor wheel) the 04 turbo use a 13 turbine wheel which is not interchangable but exducer and inducer are same size as the 03 turbine 72.5mm/66mm. After that the 05-07 turbos whent down in size in both compressor wheel and turbine wheel(compressor 57mm/82mm and turbine 72.5mm/64mm) That's why a 03-04 turbo runs better and trucks are faster than a 05-07 turbo.

Now just when you thought ok I get it, nope the 05-07 trucks have a hard time running a powermax, slow spool and high egts at cruise, on stock injectors. The reason is because the powermax is a bigger turbo and not really what I call a stock replacement, because it will need tuning to run right. The turbine wheel is so big and due to the compressor also being bigger that the 6.0 liters have a hard time in getting drive pressure to turn it. So VGT duty cycle needs to be closed more and bigger injectors also help in spooling the powermax on a 05-07. The 03- 04 truck are not as bad to run a powermax since the programimg on the ECM was made for a bigger turbine wheel.

I came along and I put a bigger compressor wheel with the smaller turbine wheel of the 05-07 and the surging issues were due to the cast wheel paired with the the smaller wheel. The turbine wheel would spin the compressor too quick and cause the surge, by switching to a billet wheel I gained surface area, more air flow, and lighter quicker spool. That pairing is very hard to beat, the stage 1 is extremely fast spooling, way faster then the powermax, and still supplies the air flow. Bigger injectors also aid in spooling a turbo faster so MTW stage 1 with bigger injectors will out spool a stock turbo, and is a blast on the street.

The big VGT turbos stage 3 and 4 are in a state of getting the tunes to run right in them. The turbine wheel I use for the stage 3 and 4 are a gt40 wheel and are much bigger then the gt37 wheel, and the powermax wheel which is also a gt37. The size of the wheel is causing the same problems as the powermax has on the 05-07 trucks but it is so big that it also effects the 03-04 trucks. Even with big injectors to help in spool the turbo needs tuning to straight it out, what people don't know is that with the tuning being develope by tuners and me working together to figure it out it will also benifit the powermax.

I have nothing against the powermax and think that it is a good turbo, but just wasn't thought out enough about how it was going to act on the 6.0 powerstrokes. Performance upgrade such as ported intakes, aftermarket intakes to get the air in will help out alot with the powermax, and also the MTW turbos.

There is a lot more in info I could get into but I think that is enough for now. Thanks and lets keep the 6.0 powerstroke running hard. Any other questions about the VGT 6.0 powerstroke post on here and I will try to answer them.

Last edited by madpowerstroke; 06-15-2013 at 11:37 PM.
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Old 06-16-2013, 04:47 AM
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Adrian, I will most of the issues you spoke of when trying to make your comparison went away when I added a billet wheel to the Garrett Powermax. Also I have an 05 and my EGT during cruise with stock injectors is between 500-680 depending which tune and which strategy I run it in. A lot has to be said about strategys, what label strategy, and the tuner doing the tuning. You also had issues with the MTW stage one back when you had the duramax cast wheel and you called it the durastroke turbo. So like billet wheel fixed your MTW s1 issues the billet fixed a lot of the Pmax issues. Tuning can also go along way on either turbo. Personally before I would throw any weight behind which turbo is better down to a specific level I would have to see a flow chart and efficiency's. How well does the MTW handle WOT EGT's I ask because I don't know or have really seen anything posted. Personally on the Pmax I get three different reading depending which strategy on a given tune I run. So a lot has to be said about the untune able parts of a file that a SCT tuner can change.
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Old 06-16-2013, 05:34 AM
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Old 06-16-2013, 06:00 AM
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so you dont like building the MTW stage1s with the 03 wheel because the 13bladed wheel spools faster and has better throttle responce over the 10 blade?
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Old 06-16-2013, 07:15 AM
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I built my durastroke similarly to Adrian's stage 1 with the cast wheel. I have the 13 blade turbine. I have not had surging issues. It spools very well. Here are a few pics of interest. Unfortunately I didn't have the VGT duty cycle up for them. You may have seen these in another thread, but they tell a story regardless of who's tune is on the truck with respect to WOT and max fuelling.

This is a WOT run from 60 to 100+. First pic is 60 mph. Second pic is faster at WOT, and the last is at a 3 digit speed at WOT. Note what injectors I have and also that it is not overly modded for airflow. For you back-pressure purists, take 14.3psi off the values you see for relative comparison - no I am no grenading my engine.







I believe the highest temp I have seen was about 1,500*. Is my truck a freak? Maybe, but this is what I see when I run a Stage 1 and just about any tune that will give max fuel.

Yes, the engine is still warming up to operating temps.

Last edited by twoicebergs; 06-16-2013 at 07:29 AM. Reason: pic link
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Old 06-16-2013, 07:42 AM
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Just to add to earlier post a lot has to be said about what ficm tuning whether it be old stock, new stock or aftermarket. I don't want to take away from what your doing and the time you have spent. I just think we need to look at every aspect of turbos and tuning as it not a one size fits all approach. I do agree that a 10 blade turbine when used on a late 04-07 would require tuning. But we can blame the turbo for ford programming changes.
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Old 06-16-2013, 08:11 AM
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Old 06-16-2013, 08:37 AM
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Also say one wants to place an order for a stage 1 what is the approx lead time for one?
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Old 06-16-2013, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by U235a4 View Post
Adrian, I will most of the issues you spoke of when trying to make your comparison went away when I added a billet wheel to the Garrett Powermax. Also I have an 05 and my EGT during cruise with stock injectors is between 500-680 depending which tune and which strategy I run it in. A lot has to be said about strategys, what label strategy, and the tuner doing the tuning. You also had issues with the MTW stage one back when you had the duramax cast wheel and you called it the durastroke turbo. So like billet wheel fixed your MTW s1 issues the billet fixed a lot of the Pmax issues. Tuning can also go along way on either turbo. Personally before I would throw any weight behind which turbo is better down to a specific level I would have to see a flow chart and efficiency's. How well does the MTW handle WOT EGT's I ask because I don't know or have really seen anything posted. Personally on the Pmax I get three different reading depending which strategy on a given tune I run. So a lot has to be said about the untune able parts of a file that a SCT tuner can change.
Thanks for you input, and this is not a debate about what turbo is better it was based on facts that I have gathered with the 6.0 and their turbos. I was also compairing the Stage 1 the newest that has fixed all the know problems over the out of the box powermax, not one that has been mod with billet and also stated that most issues with the powermax is fixed with the billet wheel. I also thank you for gathering info on your own to share with other members. I stated facts about the two turbos and stand behind what I have said, if the powermax was such a great turbo why is the proof not there as it has been with the stage 1. I have not seen any numbers that reflect the powermax with stock injectors putting numbers that the stage 1 has in the short time it has been out. I talk to a lot of tuners, have learned more about tuning then I would like to know. I have also talked to a lot of powermax owners that have been dissatisfied with it's performance and they all have the same common problem related, that as allowed me to figure this out. You have worked one one truck and played with on turbo, I will more than be happy and have offered to you a chance to switch wheels to let you gather more info. I will even build you a stage 1 and let you give a honest opinion on performance next to a boxed powermax and a powermax with a billet. You are also right about the tuning and I also mentioned that. I also know why the powermax acts the way it does, with the billet wheel much more than you would think. Please don't cloud the facts with your one results until you have had a chance to try all avenues. I'm not having a battle over which one of us knows more or with anyone else. Everything I said was based on facts of what I gained by working on these turbos and the 6.0, and learning more each day. You may call me anytime about tuning and what effects it has if you would like to know more. You also say you are running stock injector, so due to that I could actually build a turbo stage 1 tweeked with some of my methods that would work better then the powermax as far as spool and throttle response. Egt at WOT have too many variables, advance in too much timing would cause raised egt, most only look at fuel.
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Old 06-16-2013, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madpowerstroke View Post
I will give you info only on the two to help your decision. It based on experiance, and info I have gained. I was going to respond to a thread on stage 1 vs powermax but there is so much info I thought just start a new one to get the info out.

Now before I have a bunch of powermax owners taking shots at me, remember one thing, I have numbers to prove all I say and have built over 250 turbos and counting, I know a lot about the 6.0 powerstroke turbos, not all but probability more than any other members on here, just due to how many I have played with. I have also know why the powermax performs the way it does. I'm more than happy to help anyone one out and will answer questions anyone may have about turbos.

First of all I don't like to build the MTW stage 1 turbos with a 03 (10 blade wheel). The MTW stage 1 turbo, is 850.00 with the billet wheel + 450.00 for refundable core charge. The turbine wheel is a 13 blade wheel, for quicker spooling, and throttle response.

So what is the advantage of the MTW stage 1 over the out of the box powermax:
First tuning is easier, and spool is faster, flows more air, so makes more power.Spool is a combination of billet wheel and the 13 blade turbine wheel.

The Out of the box powermax lowest price I have seen is 1175.00 and no core charge and depending of year and condition of stock turbo 250.00-400.00 is what you can get for one so 1175.00 -400.00 = 775.00, if you want a billet wheel in it to spool faster and flow more air add 240.00 + 775.00= 1015.00. Warranty same on them, and the powermax is new.

The powermax has a 70% chance of working on stock injected truck and the MTW has 98% chance, with bigger injectors and tuning the powermax goes up to 85%, put the billet wheel in the powermax and it will go to 95-96%.

Now how the hell can I know all those numbers, I would call B.S. but there are reasons. Ready to learn something? so here is what I have learned taking that many turbos apart including powermaxs. The 03 stock powerstroke turbo has the same turbine wheel as the powermax, exactly the same, interchangable between the two. Yes if you put a MTW stage 1 compressor housing on a 03 powerstroke turbo bam powermax.(and with a billet compessor wheel) the 04 turbo use a 13 turbine wheel which is not interchangable but exducer and inducer are same size as the 03 turbine 72.5mm/66mm. After that the 05-07 turbos whent down in size in both compressor wheel and turbine wheel(compressor 57mm/82mm and turbine 72.5mm/64mm) That's why a 03-04 turbo runs better and trucks are faster than a 05-07 turbo.

Now just when you thought ok I get it, nope the 05-07 trucks have a hard time running a powermax, slow spool and high egts at cruise, on stock injectors. The reason is because the powermax is a bigger turbo and not really what I call a stock replacement, because it will need tuning to run right. The turbine wheel is so big and due to the compressor also being bigger that the 6.0 liters have a hard time in getting drive pressure to turn it. So VGT duty cycle needs to be closed more and bigger injectors also help in spooling the powermax on a 05-07. The 03- 04 truck are not as bad to run a powermax since the programimg on the ECM was made for a bigger turbine wheel.

I came along and I put a bigger compressor wheel with the smaller turbine wheel of the 05-07 and the surging issues were due to the cast wheel paired with the the smaller wheel. The turbine wheel would spin the compressor too quick and cause the surge, by switching to a billet wheel I gained surface area, more air flow, and lighter quicker spool. That pairing is very hard to beat, the stage 1 is extremely fast spooling, way faster then the powermax, and still supplies the air flow. Bigger injectors also aid in spooling a turbo faster so MTW stage 1 with bigger injectors will out spool a stock turbo, and is a blast on the street.

The big VGT turbos stage 3 and 4 are in a state of getting the tunes to run right in them. The turbine wheel I use for the stage 3 and 4 are a gt40 wheel and are much bigger then the gt37 wheel, and the powermax wheel which is also a gt37. The size of the wheel is causing the same problems as the powermax has on the 05-07 trucks but it is so big that it also effects the 03-04 trucks. Even with big injectors to help in spool the turbo needs tuning to straight it out, what people don't know is that with the tuning being develope by tuners and me working together to figure it out it will also benifit the powermax.

So the turbine wheel in the p-max and the 03 turbo is a GT37 and has a larger base turbine wheel than the 05-07? Is the 13 blade wheel in the 05-07 still referred to as GT37 and that the limiting difference is the base size of the wheel along with the number of blades?
Quote:
Originally Posted by twoicebergs View Post
I built my durastroke similarly to Adrian's stage 1 with the cast wheel. I have the 13 blade turbine. I have not had surging issues. It spools very well. Here are a few pics of interest. Unfortunately I didn't have the VGT duty cycle up for them. You may have seen these in another thread, but they tell a story regardless of who's tune is on the truck with respect to WOT and max fuelling.

This is a WOT run from 60 to 100+. First pic is 60 mph. Second pic is faster at WOT, and the last is at a 3 digit speed at WOT. Note what injectors I have and also that it is not overly modded for airflow. For you back-pressure purists, take 14.3psi off the values you see for relative comparison - no I am no grenading my engine.







I believe the highest temp I have seen was about 1,500*. Is my truck a freak? Maybe, but this is what I see when I run a Stage 1 and just about any tune that will give max fuel.

Yes, the engine is still warming up to operating temps.
Frank, are those just screenshots? I know when I data log it comes up in excel format.
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