Powermax: cast vs Batmo vs Single plane - Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum
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post #1 of 38 Old 05-24-2013, 02:38 PM Thread Starter
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Powermax: cast vs Batmo vs Single plane

ok so I have used the cast wheel, batmo, and now the MTW single plane. For tuning I decided to test each one with stock vxcf9 ecm tuning w/egr and a tuned ecm w/o egr along with an ID ficm tune. Other mods during this test where Banks CAI, Banks Intercooler, 4" turbo back. After running all three wheels the two billets are close and both are also better than the cast. each billet was an increase of boost, air flow, and throttle response. Now my truck even with an out of the box Pmax and stock tuning while towing or not I didn't have surge. As for intake noise the cast is pretty quiet along with the single plane billet. The batmo had a bit of intake noise but I also think it had a good bit of intake turbulence. While I'm only going to post the stock tune results now I will follow up with tuned results. All three where tested on a vxcf9 file stock and tuned but the billets where also tested on a non inferred vxcf4ng and vxcf4na.

stock tuning /egr results

Cast wheel
max boost = 24
average MAF g/s = (still looking for the data log, I hope to have it soon.)

Batmo wheel
max boost = 26
average MAF g/s = 370

MTW single plane
max boost = 27
average MAF g/s = 395

Here are some pictures of the three wheels.
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2003 F350 6.0L KR CCLB DRW 4x4 auto - bone stock
Edge insight, EAS EGT, turbo timer
Strategys, DAX0-1;TEC0-7
Ford Pilot injection

2005 F250 6.0L XLT CCLB 4x4 auto
Strategys, UPV1;URV0;CYH0-7
PowerMax-KTS 11 blade SP Billet
ARP studs, BPD EGR cooler, 04 uppipe
Banks intercooler system, Airaid Dropin
4" turbo back Magnaflow exhaust w/4" DP
Edge insight, EAS EGT, turbo timer
SCT 3015
ID custom tunes
ID Pilot-Injection
ID FICM tune
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post #2 of 38 Old 05-24-2013, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by U235a4 View Post
ok so I have used the cast wheel, batmo, and now the MTW single plane. For tuning I decided to test each one with stock vxcf9 ecm tuning w/egr and a tuned ecm w/o egr along with an ID ficm tune. Other mods during this test where Banks CAI, Banks Intercooler, 4" turbo back. After running all three wheels the two billets are close and both are also better than the cast. each billet was an increase of boost, air flow, and throttle response. Now my truck even with an out of the box Pmax and stock tuning while towing or not I didn't have surge. As for intake noise the cast is pretty quiet along with the single plane billet. The batmo had a bit of intake noise but I also think it had a good bit of intake turbulence. While I'm only going to post the stock tune results now I will follow up with tuned results. All three where tested on a vxcf9 file stock and tuned but the billets where also tested on a non inferred vxcf4ng and vxcf4na.

stock tuning /egr results

Cast wheel
max boost = 24
average MAF g/s = (still looking for the data log, I hope to have it soon.)

Batmo wheel
max boost = 26
average MAF g/s = 370

MTW single plane
max boost = 27
average MAF g/s = 395

Here are some pictures of the three wheels.
Thanks for the data, nice to have someone out there sharing info. I did a basic flow check, and the 11 blade wheel put out more flow then the other two, which shows on your testing also.

2004 F250 Ext.cab fabtech 5.5" lift,and traction bars 35" on 18".2005-2007 grill and LED headlights,58v FICM, Warren dual HPOP system, fuel reg. return system, areo 1000a fuel pump, dual fuel filters, ARP studded heads, CCV reroute, EGR delete, 225/75 Warren injectors, water/meth injection (cooling mist),SCT tuner with customs, banks intercooler. MTW stage 4 turbo, built trans by Andy Warren, 4:10 Detroit lockers.
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post #3 of 38 Old 05-26-2013, 06:16 PM Thread Starter
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Adrian, you know for one at least with my truck the Powermax with the single plane I can consider a viable replacement with out tuning. As for lag, it's the same as a stock turbo on my truck. As for boost it's the same as the stock turbo but since the air is cooler it's denser and moving more air at the same boost level. I had 2200lbs of stone in the bed, 1500lbs trailer with 4 yards of wet mulch and didn't brake 950 on the egts@ 65 with the stock tune and the egr enabled. Also did a accell up to 75 with the load did 28-29lbs boost and didn't break 1100*F. I just tuned the truck again today with the vxcf4na which takes forever to balance the cylinders and set the vgt but once it does I'll report back to this thread with an update. I can say the truck is much much lighter on it's feet with the single plane over the other two wheels tuned. I've run the batmo on an inferred and non inferred so I'll do the same with the single plane and see how it reacts to each tune type.

2003 F350 6.0L KR CCLB DRW 4x4 auto - bone stock
Edge insight, EAS EGT, turbo timer
Strategys, DAX0-1;TEC0-7
Ford Pilot injection

2005 F250 6.0L XLT CCLB 4x4 auto
Strategys, UPV1;URV0;CYH0-7
PowerMax-KTS 11 blade SP Billet
ARP studs, BPD EGR cooler, 04 uppipe
Banks intercooler system, Airaid Dropin
4" turbo back Magnaflow exhaust w/4" DP
Edge insight, EAS EGT, turbo timer
SCT 3015
ID custom tunes
ID Pilot-Injection
ID FICM tune
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post #4 of 38 Old 05-28-2013, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by U235a4 View Post
Each billet was an increase of boost, air flow, and throttle response.
Quote:
Originally Posted by U235a4 View Post
As for lag, it's the same as a stock turbo on my truck. As for boost it's the same as the stock turbo but since the air is cooler it's denser and moving more air at the same boost level.
These two statements seem to contradict each other.. Was there an improvement in throttle response or was it the same as stock?
I'm hoping to improve my off idle tip in throttle response, right now it appears that I am running 'all motor' until about 2k RPM, and I'd like to engage some boost at lower RPMs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by U235a4 View Post
All three where tested on a vxcf9 file stock and tuned; but the billets where also tested on a non inferred vxcf4ng and vxcf4na.
I look forward to seeing the results of the older strategy and how they did tuned.

FWIW, I attached a graph the logs of the area I am most trying to affect. If you look at it, I am essentially mashing WOT and the boost isn't even building up to 10PSI until I exceed 2k RPM.

If you look at the other much longer image, it is fairly representative of my daily commute, this was taken this morning, I exceed 2k rpms when highway cruising, but mostly I stay below 2k RPM once I get to the city limits.

I am running a vxcf9 strategy. No FICM tuning yet.
If you had to make a suggestion, which of your tested combinations may work the best for me?
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2005 F250 CCSB Lariat with FX4 6.0L leveling kit, engine stock for now
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post #5 of 38 Old 05-28-2013, 04:02 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
These two statements seem to contradict each other.. Was there an improvement in throttle response or was it the same as stock?
ok, These wheels above are all wheels I have used on my Garrett PowerMax turbo. This turbo is more ales a 64mm turbo vs the factory 58mm. with the size and combo of this off the shelf turbo is lag. the 04-07 use a 13 blade turbine where as the 03 and powermax's use a 10 blade wheel. this is good for egts and back pressure but it takes more energy to spool also without tuning. so if the first statement I was comparing the billet pmax wheels to the pmax cast. The second statement I was saying that the pmax +MTW single wheel in my truck works as good as a stock turbo. So now I get the added benefits of added airflow without the dead area up top but also the throttle response of a stock turbo.

Quote:
I'm hoping to improve my off idle tip in throttle response, right now it appears that I am running 'all motor' until about 2k RPM, and I'd like to engage some boost at lower RPMs.I look forward to seeing the results of the older strategy and how they did tuned.
Two things help throttle response, a tuned FICM and a non inferred tune. I have stock power tunes with the EGR valve disabled in both inferred and non inferred and having the egr disabled adds a lot for throttle response but I still have stock power and limits so I'm really safe with those files. Personally I saw my best mileage gain with a FICM tune whether I was running stock tuning or a tuned ecm. HWY and CTY both gained with a FICM tune. For older vs newer strategy in my truck HWY mileage is pretty much the same. Now cty mileage is up with the older strategy because it boost better so it gets the truck moving easier. Now I will say the EGR functions in the newer strategys are leaps ahead of the older code. It runs cleaner, less smoke, and the vane sweep is a nice function that helps but it's not a failsafe for a sticking turbo. One of the problems with a EBP tune is if the EBP sensor goes it can also take a turbo with it. I see about a .5 to 1mpg CTY gain with the EBP tune over the non inferred strategy tune.



Quote:
I am running a vxcf9 strategy. No FICM tuning yet.
If you had to make a suggestion, which of your tested combinations may work the best for me?
Personally to me I would do the FICM tuning as the ford FICM tuning that came out with the vxcf9 files suck and kills mileage, throttle response and power. I can't say what would work best for you but for me with the FICM tune and even the stock ecm file I get 15 plus MPG cty 19-20 hwy. For my truck best mileage would be a stock turbo with a good billet wheel, mild FICM tune, a stock to street based power tune with the egr disabled. as for strategy you just have to experiment and see what your truck likes. There are so many variables in these trucks whether you have blue, red or green label tuning. Also your truck lacks a MAF where mine has one so that also plays into the mix to some degree.


Here are some pictures to show the difference between the stock cast wheel and a powermax cast wheel.
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2003 F350 6.0L KR CCLB DRW 4x4 auto - bone stock
Edge insight, EAS EGT, turbo timer
Strategys, DAX0-1;TEC0-7
Ford Pilot injection

2005 F250 6.0L XLT CCLB 4x4 auto
Strategys, UPV1;URV0;CYH0-7
PowerMax-KTS 11 blade SP Billet
ARP studs, BPD EGR cooler, 04 uppipe
Banks intercooler system, Airaid Dropin
4" turbo back Magnaflow exhaust w/4" DP
Edge insight, EAS EGT, turbo timer
SCT 3015
ID custom tunes
ID Pilot-Injection
ID FICM tune
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post #6 of 38 Old 05-28-2013, 04:07 PM
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what do you mean by inferred and non inferred

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post #7 of 38 Old 05-28-2013, 04:59 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 01redcrew View Post
what do you mean by inferred and non inferred
inferred means the ECM uses MAF, MAP, BARO and EOT sensors to infer what EBP is since it no longer looks at EBP for a reading. Non-inferred means the ECM uses the actual reading from the EBP sensor for controlling the turbo vanes.

2003 F350 6.0L KR CCLB DRW 4x4 auto - bone stock
Edge insight, EAS EGT, turbo timer
Strategys, DAX0-1;TEC0-7
Ford Pilot injection

2005 F250 6.0L XLT CCLB 4x4 auto
Strategys, UPV1;URV0;CYH0-7
PowerMax-KTS 11 blade SP Billet
ARP studs, BPD EGR cooler, 04 uppipe
Banks intercooler system, Airaid Dropin
4" turbo back Magnaflow exhaust w/4" DP
Edge insight, EAS EGT, turbo timer
SCT 3015
ID custom tunes
ID Pilot-Injection
ID FICM tune
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post #8 of 38 Old 05-28-2013, 06:08 PM
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i gotcha!!

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post #9 of 38 Old 05-28-2013, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by U235a4 View Post
ok, These wheels above are all wheels I have used on my Garrett PowerMax turbo. This turbo is more ales a 64mm turbo vs the factory 58mm. with the size and combo of this off the shelf turbo is lag. the 04-07 use a 13 blade turbine where as the 03 and powermax's use a 10 blade wheel. this is good for egts and back pressure but it takes more energy to spool also without tuning. so if the first statement I was comparing the billet pmax wheels to the pmax cast. The second statement I was saying that the pmax +MTW single wheel in my truck works as good as a stock turbo. So now I get the added benefits of added airflow without the dead area up top but also the throttle response of a stock turbo.
While admit that I am still learning this turbo stuff, this is the compressor that came out of my 2003 and it was the same configuration as the dual plane MTW wheel that I replaced it with, (except being Kool Kids billet and having longer blades of course). My point is that I took out a 14 blade wheel, and replaced it with same.

My FICM tuner has upped throttle response, but my truck is determined to be a 1%'er and my mpg still sucks.


Karl and his 2003 6.0

Barefoot Accelerator Pedal
TRICO Force wiper blades
Yellow Military Aircraft Valve Stem Caps
Offensive "Stick Family" Decal
Big Ol'Honkin 1 1/4" Shank Receiver Hitch


WHAT!?! I was trying to list stuff that everyone else
hasn't already listed for their truck!




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post #10 of 38 Old 05-28-2013, 07:20 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Karls03 View Post
While admit that I am still learning this turbo stuff, this is the compressor that came out of my 2003 and it was the same configuration as the dual plane MTW wheel that I replaced it with, (except being Kool Kids billet and having longer blades of course). My point is that I took out a 14 blade wheel, and replaced it with same.
your talking compressor wheel. I'm referring to the turbine ( exhaust side) wheel. 03 early 04 (03 engine) used a 10 blade turbine with a 14 blade compressor. late 04 through 07 used a 13 blade turbine with a 14 blade compressor.

2003 F350 6.0L KR CCLB DRW 4x4 auto - bone stock
Edge insight, EAS EGT, turbo timer
Strategys, DAX0-1;TEC0-7
Ford Pilot injection

2005 F250 6.0L XLT CCLB 4x4 auto
Strategys, UPV1;URV0;CYH0-7
PowerMax-KTS 11 blade SP Billet
ARP studs, BPD EGR cooler, 04 uppipe
Banks intercooler system, Airaid Dropin
4" turbo back Magnaflow exhaust w/4" DP
Edge insight, EAS EGT, turbo timer
SCT 3015
ID custom tunes
ID Pilot-Injection
ID FICM tune
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