Replaced hpop, still won't start hot - Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum
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post #1 of 30 Old 04-14-2013, 08:41 AM Thread Starter
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Replaced hpop, still won't start hot

Hi all,

First off let me say that I'm no expert on powerstrokes. I know more about cummins in dodges. With that said, I did some work on an '04 f250 that a used car lot sold to a guy. He had trouble with it not starting hot, so they (the car lot) had it "diagnosed" at a local truck performance shop. They said it needed the hpop replaced, and they also mentioned something about a screen getting sucked into the pump. A buddy and I ended up with the job, so we put a reman pump in there. While we were at it, we replaced the discharge pipe that goes from the pump to the back of the engine, and the IPR. I saw no screen that could have been getting sucked into the pump. I wasn't real impressed with the fact that they didn't note on their shop ticket that the oil was both very dirty and almost 2 quarts low. Before I touched the truck, I had the car lot change the oil, and I stressed to them that they must use 15w40 diesel oil. Obviously, this did not fix the problem.

Long story short, it still won't start hot. You have to get it thoroughly warmed up before it fails to start, but it still does it. So, while it wouldn't start, we unplugged the oil pressure sensor near the front of the passenger side valve cover. It would then start. We plugged the sensor back in-no start. So, we replaced the sensor. STILL no start when hot.

We do not possess a scan tool that will read oil rail pressure. I believe that's part of our trouble here-we really aren't equipped to diagnose this truck very well, but the car lot that's footing the bill told us that the "real" shop diagnosed the trouble as being the hpop.

The only other thing I can come up with, besides it being the low pressure oil pump, is that maybe the dummy plugs are leaking. I was thinking of removing the oil pressure sensor and applying shop air to the hole, listening for air leaking inside the valve covers.

What do you guys think?
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post #2 of 30 Old 04-14-2013, 08:50 AM
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I just got done fixing our 03 at work which had the same issues. First off, is an early 04 or a late 04? A very easy way to check is to look at the passenger side valve cover, if the ICP sensor on top of the valve cover it's a late 04. 03's and early 04s do not have an STC fitting or dummy plugs. When I diagnosed ours, I got some special fitting and made up an air connection tool to screw into the ICP sensor location on top of the HPOP cover, applied air to the system and listened for air leaks. I heard air gurgling in the oil filter housing, so I knew the pump was bad or on its way out. I replaced the HPOP, IPR, ICP w/ pigtail, oil discharge tube, update oil drain tube, and the stand pipes. Stand pipes are a known source of HP oil leaks. Also, injector o-rings are also known to be a culprit of HP oil leaks.


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post #3 of 30 Old 04-14-2013, 08:51 AM
Fill it up again Dummy
 
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Most likely a upper o-ring on the injectors are leaking. You can pull off the valve covers and crank away and look for the leak. Can also use air to find it.


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post #4 of 30 Old 04-14-2013, 08:54 AM
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Won't start at all when hot or just have to crank a long time to get it to start?

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post #5 of 30 Old 04-14-2013, 09:00 AM Thread Starter
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Won't start at all. Letting it sit for 15 or 20 minutes will let it start after 4 or 5 seconds of continuous cranking, whereupon it idles roughly for a second or so, then smooths right out. Forgot to mention, the truck has 243k on it, and I don't believe the engine has been swapped. The truck has no hitch in the bed, so I'm guessing it has not been worked very hard. The ICP is on the passenger side valve cover, toward the front. The build date on the truck is 02/04, which I would have thought would be an early one.
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post #6 of 30 Old 04-15-2013, 08:59 AM Thread Starter
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I borrowed a snap on diagnostic tool from the car dealer paying for the work. Here's what it said: IPR% at idle was about 28% when engine was cold, and gradually worked it's way down into the lower 20's as the engine warmed up. Rail pressure was around 575 at idle before engine warmed up. It ended up at about 550 psi when it was warmed up.

I shut it off when the oil temp was reading 196, and it would not restart. Rail pressure during cranking was 350. I let it sit a few minutes, and checked the oil temp again. When it was 189 I unplugged the ICP and tried again. It started that time, so I plugged the sensor in and drove off.

When I turned off a road into a driveway, the idle speed began to hunt. On one of the down swings, it cut off, and of course would not restart. I happened to be looking at the scan tool when the idle was hunting, and the rail pressure was right at 500, with a few dips into the 490's. Then it cut off.

I now know what I strongly suspected-the high pressure oil system still has at least one leak. I'm gonna try the shop air test, and I expect that I'll be pulling the valve covers after that to look at injectors and dummy plugs.
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post #7 of 30 Old 04-17-2013, 11:35 AM Thread Starter
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Any thoughts?
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post #8 of 30 Old 04-17-2013, 01:07 PM
Fill it up again Dummy
 
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I'm starting to think that ICP may be bad, find it strange that as it warms up the IPR values drop like it does. Also unplugging it and then it starts does not lean towards a leak but toward the ICP.
Now Ford says anything 30 and over at idle on IPR is a hpo leak but I say throw a ICP in there and see what it does. May be worth your time to also pull the IPR and make sure it's clean.


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post #9 of 30 Old 04-17-2013, 01:16 PM
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^^^^x2 the fact that unplugging the ICP lets it start tells me the sensor is biased. Replace the sensor

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post #10 of 30 Old 04-17-2013, 07:42 PM Thread Starter
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ICP and IPR are both brand new. We have gotten new standpipes and dummy plugs. A kit to replace the injector o rings is on the way, along with the special tool needed to do it. Three of the little metal things that stick up off the oil rails when they're upside down on a bench are pretty loose. The other 5 are much tighter. We're going to replace all 8 of course. At that point, the hpop, discharge pipe, ICP, IPR, standpipes, dummy plugs, and injector o rings will have been replaced. It's almost GOT to have good rail pressure after that.

Would the low pressure account for the hunting idle? That seems to only happen when the engine is warmed up.
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