Help! 6.0 problem after head stud install - Page 3 - Ford Powerstroke Diesel Forum
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  #21  
Old 02-22-2011, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deucer View Post
You'll have to pull the Oil Rail to get to the Rocker Arm Assembly. I think it is 8 bolts, but don't pry the oil rail out. Just yank on it a couple of times and it will come free. Once out you will leak oil out of the rail, so be prepared. Once out of the way, you have a clear path to rockers, push rods and injectors. If you pull a rocker off, check the push rod to make sure it isn't bent. If you're checking # 8 then I assume you've pulled the degas tank out of the way...
That's NINE TX-30 bolts that secure the rail to the rocker arm carrier, and five valve cover studs and six valve cover bolts on the driver side for a 2006 truck. To remove the push tubes requires the engine to be turned over in a manner where the push tubes to be removed are NOT in the partially open position. You will also need to remove the injector for the cylinder where the push tube is to be removed, and install the Ford/Rotunda tool that compresses the valve bridges in order to enable sliding the rocker arms off the pivots. DO NOT drop the pivot ball during this process.
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  #22  
Old 02-22-2011, 04:47 PM
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Hello,
Not sure if you are still dealing with this but here is a thought for you. When assembling these engines or replacing head gaskets (heads) there is one important step that is often missed and usually results in a bent valve in cyl 5 and or cyl 8. In the Ford workshop manual there is a step that directs you to rotate the engine so that the crankshaft dowel pin/notch is in the 6 o'clock position. This step is performed just before installing the rocker arms/valve train. In the head replacement procedure it is step 6 of the installation procedure. In the engine assembly section it is step 43.
the following is copied and pasted from the Ford online shop manual for 2005 6.0L engines section 303-01C.....

"NOTICE: Rotate the crankshaft until the damper locating dowel notch is in the six o'clock position or engine damage can occur".

I have seen this many times before and it might be the issue you are having. If you didn’t perform this step you likely have bent a valve on cylinder 5. Cylinder 8 valve(s) bending are also common when this happens. Compression tests might not show a great loss but based on what I have read in this thread I would be looking into this as a cause. I hope this helps. Like I said I’ve seen this many times. I’m sure there are skeptics out there that will laugh at this and say I am full of bologna but Ford didn’t put that step in there for giggles.....For those out there that will say they “have done dozens of heads or engines and never had a problem” I say you got lucky....there is a large margin for error, it could actually be at 4 o'clock or 8 and still not have a problem. Maybe even more but the bottom line is if the crank is not at the 6 o'clock position or somewhere in the neighborhood…… problems will result. Please let me know if this helps you. Hopefully you knew about this step and followed it but I figured it was worth mentioning since you haven’t mentioned if the problem was resolved yet or not. Maybe someone else will read this and save themselves some headaches.
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  #23  
Old 02-22-2011, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by skota8336 View Post
I have seen this many times before and it might be the issue you are having. If you didn’t perform this step you likely have bent a valve on cylinder 5. Cylinder 8 valve(s) bending are also common when this happens. Compression tests might not show a great loss but based on what I have read in this thread I would be looking into this as a cause. I hope this helps. Like I said I’ve seen this many times. I’m sure there are skeptics out there that will laugh at this and say I am full of bologna but Ford didn’t put that step in there for giggles.....For those out there that will say they “have done dozens of heads or engines and never had a problem” I say you got lucky....there is a large margin for error, it could actually be at 4 o'clock or 8 and still not have a problem. Maybe even more but the bottom line is if the crank is not at the 6 o'clock position or somewhere in the neighborhood…… problems will result. Please let me know if this helps you. Hopefully you knew about this step and followed it but I figured it was worth mentioning since you haven’t mentioned if the problem was resolved yet or not. Maybe someone else will read this and save themselves some headaches.
..... and how many times have you seen it, where the crank dowel was in fact turned to the six o'clock position and a pushtube was bent, along with a broken rocker arm while spinning the engine over by hand BEFORE completely re-assembling?
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Old 02-22-2011, 05:50 PM
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If the crank IS placed in the right position this shouldnt happen....His thread does not state that he did "in fact' put the crank in the 6 o'clock position. Unless I mised something?

who said anything about bent push tubes and broken rocker arms????? Maybe you should re read what I said.
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  #25  
Old 02-22-2011, 06:54 PM
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If what your saying is true, then what about the other 6 cylinders? Are they not affected in any way? I struggle with trying to figure out how you can attain an exact positioning of all cylinders simultaneously that would preclude a catastrophic event from occurring. The only time I can possibly reasoning this is if you are establishing top dead center to align crank and cam... I have an 04 that I did the head gaskets on and I didn't do that, and it seems to be running at optimum with no codes are faults using AutoEnginuity to analyze.
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  #26  
Old 02-22-2011, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skota8336 View Post
If the crank IS placed in the right position this shouldnt happen....His thread does not state that he did "in fact' put the crank in the 6 o'clock position. Unless I mised something?
I wasn't referring to the OP's thread in particular. I was simply asking if YOU have seen it where procedure was followed, and this sort of thing happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skota8336 View Post
who said anything about bent push tubes and broken rocker arms????? Maybe you should re read what I said.
Nobody said anything about bent push tubes. I am saying it because I have read about many threads where other techs have had cylinder #5 push tube bent and/or the rocker arm broken while going back together so I found it interesting. Sorry if that offends you. And yes, I read, write and speak English very well, thank you very much. And, as I'm sure you've already figured out, I too am a tech with Ford for many years.
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  #27  
Old 02-22-2011, 07:45 PM
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M-chan….. no problem I was not offended, it’s easy to be misunderstood in text/on a forum...my sincerest apologies as well…I was not mocking or intending to insult you in any way at all.
I was just trying to add some insight to the very first post on this thread. I have seen what you are talking about with #5…don’t have an explanation for ya on it when the crank was at 6. As well as being a former dealer tech I worked several years at the Ford tech hotline diesel group (probably talked to you once or twice lol) There I saw countless cases where a tech would install heads and bend valves….when I, or the FSE (at the dealer) asked about the crank positioning the techs always had the same answer….”didn’t know about that step”..LOL Sure enough…. replace the bent valve(s) and reinstall with the crank at 6 and no problems. It was always #5..sometimes 8 but always 5…don’t have the engineering answer…..
I am not a know it all type at all….(that’s why I came here…to learn)
I experienced this and was educated about this while working at the hotline with the Ford and Navistar engineers…..I cannot explain why it is always number 5 or 8 but I can attest to my personal experiences with this issue. For one reason or another it bends #5. they put that step in there for good reason and I know for a fact that warranty can and will deny claims in situations like this where its proven the tech skipped step 6 or 43.
If you look it up that step is in all the 6.0L manuals……..in my opinion I think it’s a 180 degree window…as long as the crank dowel is between 3 and 9 you will be ok. That’s why I said there is a large margin. I do not think it has to be EXACTLY at 6 but that’s what they require in the manual. Can anyone else think of why this step is there? I literally copied that out of the online WSM for 2005. I didn’t make this up LOL
funny how I knew I would be called out on this. I’m anxious to hear if whoever installed the heads on this gentleman’s truck did in fact perform this step. And if there are any bent valves?
Again …I was simply trying to help this guy out with what I know from experience and what is printed in the Ford shop manual procedures for these engines. I will try to get together a more technical explanation in the coming days. Anyone else…please help me out here LOL All in good spirit and all to help others guys…that’s it
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  #28  
Old 02-22-2011, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by skota8336 View Post
M-chan….. no problem I was not offended, it’s easy to be misunderstood in text/on a forum...my sincerest apologies as well…I was not mocking or intending to insult you in any way at all.
I was just trying to add some insight to the very first post on this thread. I have seen what you are talking about with #5…don’t have an explanation for ya on it when the crank was at 6. As well as being a former dealer tech I worked several years at the Ford tech hotline diesel group (probably talked to you once or twice lol) There I saw countless cases where a tech would install heads and bend valves….when I, or the FSE (at the dealer) asked about the crank positioning the techs always had the same answer….”didn’t know about that step”..LOL Sure enough…. replace the bent valve(s) and reinstall with the crank at 6 and no problems. It was always #5..sometimes 8 but always 5…don’t have the engineering answer…..
I am not a know it all type at all….(that’s why I came here…to learn)
I experienced this and was educated about this while working at the hotline with the Ford and Navistar engineers…..I cannot explain why it is always number 5 or 8 but I can attest to my personal experiences with this issue. For one reason or another it bends #5. they put that step in there for good reason and I know for a fact that warranty can and will deny claims in situations like this where its proven the tech skipped step 6 or 43.
If you look it up that step is in all the 6.0L manuals……..in my opinion I think it’s a 180 degree window…as long as the crank dowel is between 3 and 9 you will be ok. That’s why I said there is a large margin. I do not think it has to be EXACTLY at 6 but that’s what they require in the manual. Can anyone else think of why this step is there? I literally copied that out of the online WSM for 2005. I didn’t make this up LOL
funny how I knew I would be called out on this. I’m anxious to hear if whoever installed the heads on this gentleman’s truck did in fact perform this step. And if there are any bent valves?
Again …I was simply trying to help this guy out with what I know from experience and what is printed in the Ford shop manual procedures for these engines. I will try to get together a more technical explanation in the coming days. Anyone else…please help me out here LOL All in good spirit and all to help others guys…that’s it
skota8336, I figured you were at the very least an employee of FoMoCo on the "inside", if not a tech after reading your very first post. It didn't take too much to figure out. After all, only techs for Ford dealers are familiar with terms like "WSM" or "Section 303-01C", since we are the only ones that have access to this information online. And yes, I agree that reading the WSM is a very important part of the process of any repair, particularly one of this magnitude where there is ZERO margin for error. And yes during any type of engine repair, be that a 4.0L SOHC, 4.6/5.4L gasser or nowadays the 3.5/3.7L Edge/MKX engines, it is ever so important to spin the engine over by hand before completely re-assembling, especially where it involves timing the engine as part of the process.

I guess what I and deucer are having difficulty coming to grips with, is why it is so important to have the crank pin dowel situated at the six o'clock position. Just for that fact that on this particular engine, there is no disturbing of the valve timing involved, since this engine is an overhead valve setup (or cam-in-block), during removal and installation of the cylinder heads. And by virtue of that, valves should never interfere with the pistons when the valvetrain is tightened down, at least not in theory. The reason I responded to your post is because I actually have one torn down as I post this reply. And yes, I have the dowel at six o'clock. Looking at where all the pistons are situated, the only thing that seems obvious, is that NONE of the pistons are at TDC and BDC, thereby eliminating any possibility for valves to contact them during assembly.

As far as why cylinders #5 and #8 in particular, that's just like asking why cylinders #2 and #8 are the favoured two cylinders to go South on a 6.4L when they dynamite.
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  #29  
Old 02-23-2011, 07:41 AM
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Let me first apologize to "907" as the intent was not to 'high jack' his thread. However, this has turned into an intriguing and thought provoking discussion that I believe everyone could gain from in some manner. "skota8336", you have brought up something of value with your post and I appreciate it, but I'm one that goes deep in thought on trying to rationalize the logic of doing something when I don't know why I'm doing it. What you have disclosed has value, but does not disclose the reason for doing it. Because someone didn't do it and now they have bent valves, push rods, etc... and because they didn't, is the "ROOT Cause" of these defects is where the debate begins. I am not a master certified mechanic as I learned from my Dad watching him and helping and learning the basic fundamentals of engine work. When my Dad told me to do something and I didn't understand why, I asked. Fifty years later, I find myself still asking questions as I don't have all the answers, but I am willing to learn. All I ask now is: Why do we need to put the Crank at a specified location before installing push rods and torquing Rocker arms? I honestly don't understand the logic. I guess I'm 'ole school': Take something apart, put it back the way you took it apart in reverse, when in doubt.
Please forgive my wordy rant. I'm not trying to badger you or anyone, but trying to find the answer to this and where the "Holy Grail" is.
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  #30  
Old 02-23-2011, 02:32 PM
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Deucer…I applaud your want to know why , I try to do the same. No need to apologize at all. I will try to explain it but make no promises lol….this is what I was told…..having seen this happen at dealers across the US and Canada …I believe it to be an accurate explanation.

When the heads, rockers, push rods etc… are removed… the lifters CAN extend or "pump themselves up" to a point and MAY not be able to bleed off right away. So when the heads and rockers are bolted/torqued back down there is potential for a lifter that previously was not fully "pumped up" …to now be "pumped up" or extended….if you haven’t put the crank in the 6 o'clock position there's a good chance that one or more pistons MAY be at TDC.

when the engine is started and a lifter has been allowed to extend/pump itself up so to speak….now there is the potential for a lifter to hold a valve open long enough for the piston to smack it and bend the valve. I hope this makes sense…I know I haven't explained as technically as I would like to but Im sure you get the idea.

As M-Chan pointed out….. when you rotate the crank so the dowel is in the 6 o'clock position this makes it so that no piston is at TDC…none of them are up near the deck and will not be hitting pistons.


Please do not ask why I say its always #5…there's no science to that…it just seems that in all the repairs I was involved with at the hotline….. its almost always #5 that gets bent…next most common is 8. Exactly like M-chan said about the 6.4….no one knows why 2 and 8 melt down first. They just do.
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