No start. Done IPR ICP. Tried pressure test?

[pedaltek]

First off, heres a couple links to another local site I've been posting to. And another thread here Ive been posting to for a guy with another no start issue.

Need ICP?

Ford 2003 HPOP vs ICP problems

I just got AE so I can run any tests anyone here thinks is needed. There is also AE test results posted on those other threads. That said, I just got AE..So I'm not that good with it yet.

::early 04 6.0 with 03 motor::
Problem started with a sudden rough idle and a miss along with a pretty odd rattle sound. I've been through injectors before, it was a different miss than that. Check codes while limping it to my shop using BD outlook monitor. Had a p2290 and a p0284. Got to shop, turned off, no start, Waited a couple hours, started with same symptoms, drove 1 mile and died. Hasnt started since. Got AE, noticed ICP values were off so replaced ICP. Still no start. Pulled IPR and 12v jumped it. No click no nothing. Replaced it. Same problem.

Then hooked up air to ICP port. Heard gurgle, waited, gurgle, command IPR to 100% w/ AE...NO Change. Gurgle. Seems to be comming from inside motor/ HPOP area.

:::Question. I've read various threads on doing this pressure test. ie Apply air, gurgle, command 100%, should stop, if so w/ these symptoms, could be bad HPOP. Or, should quiet down, then hear faint leaks, trace to source. Then I read about blocking off some lines or deadheading pump. Can anyone elaborate on the propper procedure for doing this?

::Question 2. When I command IPR, should I hear a click? I dont, old one or new one. Also, at koeo, when I do command 100% my values go from 14.84% to 0%. Is this correct? I would think it would go to 100%?

::Question 3. AE is only telling me what the command to the IPR is, not what the IPR is actually doing right? So if the IPR were stuck, open, closed or in between, is there a way for AE to know this?

::Question 4. Lets say the IPR & ICP are fine, they are brand new after all. Then why no click when commanding? PCM? How would I check that? AE? Or can I pull pigtail (see photo at ps.org link above. both pigs replaced, more info in a min) to the IPR and test the contacts? red to positive contact and neg to battery negative? Then compare un-comm to command values?

The pigtail to the IPR was charred and wires exposed at the connector. see link above for photos. Could this have shorted and fried PCM?

Lastly, yes, everything else checks out. Got fuel, got oil, batts are good etc.. Its not the FICM. I'm getting 150-250 sometimes 450psi durring cranking. I KNOW, 03's are famous for HPOP's. I'm trying to rule out everything else first. I'm quickly becoming not only more knowledgeable about these 6.0's but at the same time, I'm falling into the "throw parts at it till it works" catagory. The place I didnt want to be, thus my purchase of AE.

Ok, one more question.. This is my 1 dumb guy allowed limit..
What is the black oval shaped thing on the passenger side right behind the battery? See photo below.. Just noticed this while I was doing a 50th over (vs. a once over..) and it dosent look good?

Thanks in advance for any help. And big thanks To Mchan for helping me get this far!!!

[pedaltek]

heres some excel files from AE
they are named as to what I had done before testing

[m-chan68]

Originally Posted by pedaltek

First off, heres a couple links to another local site I've been posting to. And another thread here Ive been posting to for a guy with another no start issue.

Need ICP?

Ford 2003 HPOP vs ICP problems

I just got AE so I can run any tests anyone here thinks is needed. There is also AE test results posted on those other threads. That said, I just got AE..So I'm not that good with it yet.

::early 04 6.0 with 03 motor::
Problem started with a sudden rough idle and a miss along with a pretty odd rattle sound. I've been through injectors before, it was a different miss than that. Check codes while limping it to my shop using BD outlook monitor. Had a p2290 and a p0284. Got to shop, turned off, no start, Waited a couple hours, started with same symptoms, drove 1 mile and died. Hasnt started since. Got AE, noticed ICP values were off so replaced ICP. Still no start. Pulled IPR and 12v jumped it. No click no nothing. Replaced it. Same problem.
Can you elaborate on the fields highlighted in bold red?

Then hooked up air to ICP port. Heard gurgle, waited, gurgle, command IPR to 100% w/ AE...NO Change. Gurgle. Seems to be comming from inside motor/ HPOP area.
Did you try opening the oil filter cap? Another fellow Ford dealer tech has confirmed many bad high pressure oil pumps by air testing the high pressure oil system, and hearing air leaks exiting into the oil filter housing area.

:::Question. I've read various threads on doing this pressure test. ie Apply air, gurgle, command 100%, should stop, if so w/ these symptoms, could be bad HPOP. Or, should quiet down, then hear faint leaks, trace to source. Then I read about blocking off some lines or deadheading pump. Can anyone elaborate on the propper procedure for doing this?
The Ford PC/ED test procedure on 2003 engines is to remove both valve covers and disconnect the braided oil rail feeds at the rails, and install block-off tools in their place. By doing as such, you are isolating the injectors and the oil rails from the high pressure oil system. In effect, you are testing the high pressure oil pump output. With IPR duty cycle commanded above 60%, and good strong batteries cranking the engine over, the spec is 1500 psi MINIMUM. Anything less than that, points to a bad IPR valve and/or high pressure oil pump.
::Question 2. When I command IPR, should I hear a click? I dont, old one or new one. Also, at koeo, when I do command 100% my values go from 14.84% to 0%. Is this correct? I would think it would go to 100%?
When IPR duty cycle is commanded to 100% with a scan tool, it should indicate as such on the scan tool data. Why the value is going to 0% is beyond me. What you should hear, is a change in airflow with air supply connected, as you toggle through the duty cycle range, up to 100%.
::Question 3. AE is only telling me what the command to the IPR is, not what the IPR is actually doing right? So if the IPR were stuck, open, closed or in between, is there a way for AE to know this?
Correct. There is no position sensor on the IPR valve to indicate its actual position unfortunately. The duty cycle data you see, is only the COMMANDED duty cycle.
::Question 4. Lets say the IPR & ICP are fine, they are brand new after all. Then why no click when commanding? PCM? How would I check that? AE? Or can I pull pigtail (see photo at ps.org link above. both pigs replaced, more info in a min) to the IPR and test the contacts? red to positive contact and neg to battery negative? Then compare un-comm to command values?
You can only test the ground side of the IPR valve circuit (yellow with red striped wire between IPR valve connector and pin #2 of the middle PCM connector). The red wire is a fused HOT IN RUN circuit, meaning you should see 12 volts when the key is in the RUN position.

The pigtail to the IPR was charred and wires exposed at the connector. see link above for photos. Could this have shorted and fried PCM?
If the wires were to short out to each other, the engine wouldn't run PERIOD. If you are still able to communicate with your scan tool, chances are extremely slim that there's anything wrong with the PCM.
Lastly, yes, everything else checks out. Got fuel, got oil, batts are good etc.. Its not the FICM. I'm getting 150-250 sometimes 450psi durring cranking. I KNOW, 03's are famous for HPOP's. I'm trying to rule out everything else first. I'm quickly becoming not only more knowledgeable about these 6.0's but at the same time, I'm falling into the "throw parts at it till it works" catagory. The place I didnt want to be, thus my purchase of AE.
It pretty much looks like a new high pressure oil pump is in your immediate future with what you're describing so far, in this paragraph.
Ok, one more question.. This is my 1 dumb guy allowed limit..
What is the black oval shaped thing on the passenger side right behind the battery? See photo below.. Just noticed this while I was doing a 50th over (vs. a once over..) and it dosent look good?
That is the vacuum reservoir, that stores vacuum to operate the mode selection for your climate controls, and for your PVH (Pulse Vacuum Hubs) if equipped with ESOF (Electronic Shift-On-The-Fly) 4x4.
Thanks in advance for any help. And big thanks To Mchan for helping me get this far!!!

Is there anything else I can help you with? What have you come up with so far?

[Dave911]

I have a question: I am not Pedaltek, I started this thread: (Ford 2003 HPOP vs ICP problems) Have you seen an ICP sensor report oil pressure in the 500 psi range while cranking but create a no-start situation on a Ford 6.0 2003 due to a bad sensor (leaking into the connector?) I replaced the ICP and pigtail and a lot of electrical error codes went away. Need to put the turbo back on to see if it starts today.

Also, my 2003 6.0 has almost 200K on it. I'd like to get 300K+ out of this engine and so far it looks like it might make it that far if I can get beyond electrical issues. Would it be smart to replace the HPOP soon even if it is currently ok as a preventive measure or do the engines with bad HPOPs fail well before the 200K range and I should be ok..?

Finally, what is the life of this engine beyond the typical problems (EGR, HPOP, Injectors etc) if it is well taken care of? Regular oil changes, synthetic oil etc.
I'm not pulling a 26K lb fifth wheel etc. This is in an Excursion that pulls about 7000 lbs infrequently. Mostly highway miles with trips greater than 100 miles. Thanks, Dave

[Dave911]

OK, one more question on my 2003 6.0 powerstroke..
I swapped the PCM and FICM from a junkyard truck. With key on engine off - I get a "Theft" light flashing rapidly on the top of the instrument panel. It goes away after about a minute. Is that because my keychip is not matched to the computer?? Will that create a no start situation also?
I'd like to keep this newer PCM and FICM in the truck since the firmware is newer but the old computer and FICM is probably good also, so I could swap them back in.
Thanks, Dave

[pedaltek]

Ok, I've done this every way possible and same results. I was thinking the IPR I just got may have been bad or something. So I pulled it out. put air in the tip of it, it blew air out the holes on its side, I applied 12v and it definately closed, the hiss deminished except for a faint hiss.
Should it even have a faint hiss?

Here is what its doing. I apply air to icp port, I have oil fill cap off, left side breather off and oil filter housing cap and filter out. It gurgles air out the filter housing and both valve covers. This is regardless of wether the IPR is commanded with 12v jumper or not. Same quick air leak. As if its not closing?

Saying the IPR is good. And it is closing when I apply the 12v, then what does it mean that I have air quickly escaping these 3 places?
Which parts would fail and allow this much air to escape? Or is this just an obvious sign that anything could be blown and I need to get to the hpop? I just thought I'd be looking for a faint high pressure leak somewhere. Not a massive leak comming from all 3 of these places.

By using the 2 block off's, this will rule ou the rail and injectors. Is it possible for the air to escape this quickly into the same 3 locations using this method? It just seems like its the IPR?

Also, the oil filter canister. key off or on, it dosent fill up like the fuel canistrer does. Is this normal? I know that if you depress the middle valve in there and crank it over, it should fill. But not at all with KOEO?

Anyone?

[Dave911]

The purpose of the IPR is to regulate the high pressure oil pressure. If it is too low, it closes, too high it opens. If it is showing 85% when you are cranking and the IPR is good (sure sounds like it is working to me) then high pressure oil should build pressure - otherwise it is leaking someplace. If the HPOP is bad then it won't be able to build pressure since it will have excessive internal leakage. If you have leaks under the valve covers you won't be able to build pressure. The low pressure oil comes from the pump that is around the front of the crank, then it flows up to the oil cooler and filter assembly. Some of the oil leaves the filter and flows to the HPOP. So when you put air pressure on the ICP port you are pumping air into the HPOP and also the feed lines to the injectors. If you have bubbles coming out of the oil filter canister then that is air leaking through the HPOP back into the filter canister. I would not expect much air to get through the HPOP to the filter canister as there should be check valve in the HPOP to prevent backflow (I would think).

I believe there are some O-ring type seals that seal the HPOP to the block. Perhaps those are leaking?

The oil filter canister will not fill up with the Key on engine off as the pump which is driven by the crankshaft is not pumping. When you crank the engine, the oil canister should fill with oil. When you crank the engine does your oil pressure gauge on the dash move up to a middle position indicating oil pressure?

Since you are into it this deep anyway, why don't you pull off a valve cover and see where the air is coming from under there?

I think you either have a leak someplace or the HPOP is worn out. I'd pull the valve covers and see if anything obvious is wrong there. There is talk of cracked branch lines under valve covers on this forum, besides HPOP failures.

[pedaltek]

I had the valve cover off before, left side. Dont ask why I put it all back together and now have the ficm and all back off again?? Sleep depervation maybe??

But at that time, I didnt hear any leaks comming through into the valve area. Just back under the turbo area. In hind sight, I did hear the gurgle but it wasnt like it was comming out the rails or injectors.

See thats where I get confused?? If the discharge tube or hpop itself were fried and air got in there, where does it go? If the IPR were open, it would go into the crankcase and come back up into the oil filter housing and up into both valve cover areas, right? So if the discharge tube or oring or? were bad, does the air go into these leaking points and into the crankcase also? Thats why i hear it comming out, then command ipr closed, and nothing changes?

[m-chan68]

Originally Posted by pedaltek

Ok, I've done this every way possible and same results. I was thinking the IPR I just got may have been bad or something. So I pulled it out. put air in the tip of it, it blew air out the holes on its side, I applied 12v and it definately closed, the hiss deminished except for a faint hiss.
Should it even have a faint hiss?
There is a special IPR valve tester tool that exists to test the IPR valve, but in all the years of wrenching on these trucks, I haven't needed to use it. Either it's working or it isn't, plain and simple. If you hear a change in airflow, it's working.

Here is what its doing. I apply air to icp port, I have oil fill cap off, left side breather off and oil filter housing cap and filter out. It gurgles air out the filter housing and both valve covers. This is regardless of wether the IPR is commanded with 12v jumper or not. Same quick air leak. As if its not closing?
I believe I already indicated in a previous post that a fellow dealer tech at another dealer has condemned several 2003 high pressure oil pumps with this symptom.
Saying the IPR is good. And it is closing when I apply the 12v, then what does it mean that I have air quickly escaping these 3 places?
Which parts would fail and allow this much air to escape? Or is this just an obvious sign that anything could be blown and I need to get to the hpop? I just thought I'd be looking for a faint high pressure leak somewhere. Not a massive leak comming from all 3 of these places.

By using the 2 block off's, this will rule ou the rail and injectors. Is it possible for the air to escape this quickly into the same 3 locations using this method? It just seems like its the IPR?
You indicate the IPR valve is new, correct? If so, unless you damaged it by leaving it powered up for too long, I highly doubt it is bad.
Also, the oil filter canister. key off or on, it dosent fill up like the fuel canistrer does. Is this normal? I know that if you depress the middle valve in there and crank it over, it should fill. But not at all with KOEO?
HUH? Why would the oil filter canister fill up with oil at key-on/engine-off? The only time oil is flowing through any part of the system is when the engine is cranking or running, be that high or low pressure oil. I'm going to assume you have already verified that you are getting low pressure oil to the filter housing when it's cranked over, just by virtue of what you posted, otherwise you're wasting your time if your low pressure oil system isn't working.Anyone?

Reading through your posts up to and including now, leads me to believe you are avoiding the most obvious (and yes most expensive) solution to your problem, the high pressure oil pump.

[pedaltek]

Yeah, I agree I'm sure its the hpop too. I guess I'm still trying to envision how this whole thing functiuons in my head before I start tearing parts off like a mad man. I just expected the air sound to change a little? And I wasnt sure what the difference was between closing the ipr and chasing a leak at an injector or wherever, and having nothing change was.

Basically I keep reading the same thing over and over: "When you command it to 100%, if you hear no leaks, its a bad hpop. If you do hear a leak, chase it down."
I cant seem to find anything that says: ::When commanded if nothing changes (ie air still escaping at same rate as before) then XXX is the problem because, that part is linked directly to these places::
Also, no info anywhere that says, where the air goes Before you command it closed? As in: ::Apply air, listen for the air to escape at both valve covers and from the filter housing (This Is Normal). Then when you command 100% the air should stop escaping from those 3 spots. And if not, then XXX is the problem::

So are there 2 kinds of HPO leaks?
One is a leak in a component in the HPOP, discharge tube or anywhere under the hpop cover. These leaks will exhibt symptoms like I'm having (air escaping into valve covers and filter housing). It could be the hpop itself, or just the discharge tube or an o-ring. Either way, the air will come out those 3 places.

Then is there a leak where everything in the hpop world is fine, and the leak exists at an injector or oil rail or somewhere else. These leaks will cause the air to stop escaping from the filter can and VC's and will instead be leaking from one of the inj or dummy plugs or stand pipes etc.

I'm just one of those people that want to think about it twice, and do it perfect the first time. And I want to fully understand something before I approach it. I've read too many threads of guys pulling everything replacing everything and having it not work or after all that it was bad fuel or a cut wire or something.

If I could find a book or anything with more specific info I'd be fine. But even the 6.0 bible, and others dont get specific enough. Maybe I read past something? There must be a place where all the answers and details are at. Is that called, go to school and buy the book?

Hey m-chan, seriously, I know you've been told this a million times, but one more cant hurt. You are the man. Your patience is beyond my ability. And willingness to help is amazing! Thank you.

I will keep posting my adventures. And when I'm done, I plan to make a thread called 6.0 for dumb-dumbs chronicalling my experiences starting from a year ago when I broke my cherry on a #7 injector install.

Thanks again, look forward to your reply about my "Where the F does my air go!?" lol